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Freelander 1 HTR - hacked off :(

Discussion in 'Land Rover Freelander' started by htr, Jul 2, 2017.

  1. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    Replaced radiator and thought leaking coolant sorted but noooo. Just sitting in my wintery driveway it's loosing coolant! Yes I've found mayo under the oil filler cap and think I can see a blob on the end of the dipstick.:mad: The oil appears to be a normal colour and not a coffee coloured emulsified mix. And Yes that two year old radiator is faulty.

    I can't believe it! It's been running so well! All bits nearly here [inlet & exhaust gaskets, tensioner & bolt, cam belt and coolant pump] just waiting on the Payen BW750 HG to arrive from DMGRS. Coolant, oil and filter already on hand.

    The coolant tank is clear of oil and there's no bubbling either. I can't see any evidence of external leakage. No visible stains beneath the inlet manifold, around old thermostat housing or below the coolant pump. There is no drips or puddles where I park. I checked the mat / carpet under the heater - all dry there too. All pipes, hoses etc have no staining where the connect to plastic / metal parts... If the IMG has failed leaking coolant into the combustion I wouldn't get the oil coolant mixing. sigh.

    Now I'm right in thinking that the only places where oil and coolant can meet are: at the head to block joint OR if a wet liner looses its seal lower down. God I hope it's not the latter!

    The motor starts well, there is no cylinder 'missing' when cold, I could be a bit paranoid but it may be sounding a bit rougher in its idle when first started these cold mornings, but when warm it's and even and quiet. Yesterday I started it after it has sat unused for three days, I had to top up with 400ml of coolant first. It started with a real clatter from the cam gear. I stopped it, and tried again, it was noisy but quickly settled to its usual quiet whirring. Is that possibly due to contaminated oil in the hydraulic tappets?

    I don't believe that the motor has been overheated so I'm hoping that it's the simpler head off - clean up and replace the HG with another Payen BW750 reassemble. I'll ask my regular mechanic to check the head for straightness and I'll have a go at checking the liner heights myself with a new steel ruler and feeler gauges.

    So a Head gasket failure [HGF] - on the elasto-polymer type the beading will fail… or corrosion will create a whole in the metal…

    MLS: I’ve experienced the corrosion failure on one and a fire ring failed to compress correctly on another allowing coolant to escape.

    Or worse - Cylinder wet-liner movement i.e. one [or more] has somehow ‘dropped’ and the fire ring losses its seal… between the HG and the head itself. OR possibly the seal of the wet-liner has failed without it actually dropping allowing coolant to enter the lower portion of the crankcase.

    Worst case scenario:
    overheated head = softened [porous], fire ring indentation, warped… lots of work to fix or a new head needed.

    Liner seal failure OR liner has dropped :
    Possible solutions to liner seal failure: try a cooling system sealer. I’ve used and had recommended to be the solid type of product. Small blocks of black stuff that you crumble into the coolant tank [it’s a bit like a large OXO cube]. It circulates, settles and congeals at the leak site, sealing it.

    OR head off, sump off, piston out, liner out reseal & reassemble. Possibly fit a shim to lift the liner back to within factory spec’s.

    If it is a liner problem I'll probably swap the motor out. Interestingly enough the spare has a liner that I moved so I'll have to sort that first.

    Where can I buy those liner shims that others have used to lift liners back to within factory spec?

    Happy Days!
     
  2. GrumpyGel

    GrumpyGel Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear. Problems where you can't see the cause are horrendous - even worse if its the cooling of a K Series!

    As you know, I can offer no advice - but I'm sure you'll get it sorted - hopefully with the minimum of stress!
     
  3. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear of your problems Htr.

    If a liner lower seal has failed, then it's actually not much more work to seal them. Just pop the sump and oil rail off and turn the crank so you can access the rod bolts. I unbolt 1 and 4 first, so turn the crank to place these at the full down position, unbolt and lift number 1 out. There's no need to separate the piston from the liner, but do mark the liner and piston so you refit them in the same orientation. Clean the liner land on the block and degrease the rebate on the liner bottom. Then apply a bead to Hylomar Blue around the liner rebate sparingly. You are basically looking to fill the corner with sealant. It doesn't need much, as it's a machined face. Once the liner has sealer applied, slip in back into the block, correctly oriented and clamp it down (read on to find out how I do that). With luck the rod will sit in the correct place on the crank pin, so the cap can be refitted. If you really want to go to town on the rebuild, then replace the bearings. However if oil changes have been on time, there will be little wear on the bearings anyway. Repeat the sealing process for mumber 4. Turn the crank 180° the repeate the sealing process for liner 2 and 3. Always clamp the liners down when rotating the crank.
    The hardest part is the actual clamping bit. Normally you can use a head bolt, a length of tube and a large washer. However with the oil rail removed to access the rod bolts, there's nothing to screw the head bolts into. I actually still use the head bolts in the normal way. But I use a nut and washer on the bottom, as a temporary oil rail thread. Once the liner resealing operation is complete and the crank has been rotated to the timing mark. The temporary nuts can be removed and the oil rail refitted, after cleaning and sealing with it's correct sealant. Just remember to never rotate the crank, without the liners being clamped down. Sealing the liners correctly into the block will take no more than 2 hours and you'll know you've a good basis to work from.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
  4. GrumpyGel

    GrumpyGel Well-Known Member

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    Have you done a complete oil change since you noticed the mayo evidence?

    There is presumably a lot of coolant being lost for you to notice it going while on your drive - but not much evidence in the oil.

    Is it worth putting some dye in the coolant - see if you can see it anywhere - it may be leaking to atmosphere and evaporating immediately.
     
  5. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Nodge - that's a very useful tip about keeping the piston in its liner and the process of resealing. I'll carefully measure the liner heights before I get too involved. I had a practice today on my spare motor. I noticed some slight corrosion on the top edge of each liner. I scrubbed this off with some fine wire wool and a rag down the bore. The liners on that motor are between 0.003" and as much as 0.006" they were higher at the cam belt end and some were a bit lower on the inlet side too. I applied some engine oil on the liner top edges and popped it back together - awaiting a future refurb.

    It's a worry and I'm possibly over thinking the situation. I've no reason to believe that any liner has moved at all but am well aware of the HGF scenario. With the car loosing coolant just sitting there and not being run the leakage could be either liner or HGF. Finding coolant in the oil when I drain it still won't give me a definite pointer either. Is there any way to prove which liner it could be?

    I guess it's a belt and braces situation! Resealing the liners will remove that doubt. If I have a low liner/s this is the time to shim them right? Where can I get the shims?

    I'll use the Payen BW750 HG when it gets here. However If I shim / reseal and can get heights within factory spec for liner height should I fit a good quality MLS gasket?
    Any brand / supplier recommendations?

    That last engine start with the noisy cam / lifters - oil drain down / emulsified oil??? Like I said earlier it did quieten down very quickly.

    GG - I haven't done a recent oil change, it was last done about 4000km ago. I've had a good look around the motor. I use the red / orange OAT coolant additive. There's no staining visible anywhere. However, the old thermostat housing does look like it's damp but again no visible stains. If that is the culprit it doesn't account for the mayo under the oil filler cap. The oil on the dip stick looks fine with no obvious discolouration...
     
  6. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    Htr. If you are worried about the bottom liner seal, then you can test this. You will need to remove the sump and clean it thoroughly of oil and goop. Loosely refit the sump. Then pressurise the filled cooling system and hold the pressure. A bicycle pump and some piping can be used at add pressure to the cooling system. Hold the pressure over night, then remove the sump and see what you get. You may well see a drip of coolant hanging off the block. If this test proves inclusive, then think carefully before blaming the liner seals. ;)
     
  7. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Nodge, yes I'd prefer if its the HG. The sealant you suggest, is that the Hylomar Blue Universal? I never used it before - hate to get the wrong stuff! Can you direct me to a supplier of suitable shims should I need them?
     
  8. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    Yes the factory specified liner sealer is Hylomar Blue. It's a very good, non setting sealer, specifically for joints such as the liner to block joint.
     
  9. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    A coolant leakage problem without running the motor
    So far I've done the following trying to work out what's leaking:
    No visible external leaks any where
    small amount of mayo under oil filler cap - I've read that this is common in cold winter months
    [​IMG]
    plugs out and a camera down the bores - all looks fine so not an internal IMG leak.
    coolant clean in tank
    plugs look ok - bit of carbon due to recent short runs.
    [​IMG]
    oil level rising - as you'll see there is coolant in the sump as I removed the sump plug to see what trickled out.
    [​IMG]

    Tomorrow off to the mechanic to have the coolant 'sniffed'
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  10. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a liner seal. It's only a few bolts on the sump to remove. This would allow you to see where it's leaking from below. ;)
     
  11. GrumpyGel

    GrumpyGel Well-Known Member

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    Ouch, the content of the sump doesn't look good does it!
     
  12. teddywood1

    teddywood1 Well-Known Member

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    i would not like to drink it any way
     
  13. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't look too clever does it. With that amount of coolant getting into the oil. I doubt it's getting through the fire rings, as the coolant would be pressurised.

    It could find its way through one of the ten bolt voids in the block, or the liner bottom seals.
     
  14. GrumpyGel

    GrumpyGel Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible that the block or a liner has cracked somewhere?
     
  15. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    Very unlikely. Unless it's been allowed to freeze.
     
  16. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    I hope not - I run a 50% antifreeze coolant mix.

    That sniff test I hope will confirm a HGF or a liner has moved.
     
  17. Nodge68

    Nodge68 Well-Known Member

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    A sniff test will only show if a fire ring is letting go. However, I feel you are loosing too much coolant for that to be happening, without the coolant exploding out the pressure cap. So effectively the cooling system has answered that one for you.
     
  18. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    You strongly suspect a liner has moved. I've taken the precaution of ordering some shims from Rimmers. They are 0.003". They should be here next week. When I take the head off I'll carefully measure the liners' protrusion. If I have to remove the liner/s I'll add a shim to the lowest ones to lift them back towards factory spec, but only if they are 0.001 or less, flush or below the block face. When shimmed and resealed would I then be best to fit a MLS HG instead of the Payen BW750?
     
  19. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    Freezing cold today with a -3ºC frost. Just bought some gloves to do the work in!

    The 'sniff' indicated exhaust gases in the coolant - the fluid did change colour and went from its blue to an aquamarine green. So I drained the coolant - it's clear and reusable. Drained the oil in prep.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    As you can see it's a nice chocolate colour, the second photo shows the oil from the oil cooler added in which is the more normal engine oil colour. Took that precaution to get rid of as much emulsified oil as possible from the system, drained the oil filter too and refitted it. When I'm all done I'll fill with a cheap mineral 10W40 oil as a flush, then drain replace the oil filter and refill with the good stuff.

    Ready to roll!
    [​IMG]
     
  20. htr

    htr Well-Known Member

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    Well my day went pretty well until I began to loosen the head bolts. I managed to stripe the splines on the torx head of bolt '6'. Had to stop there. Any suggestions out there? I could try the following:
    1 - try to 'hammer' a slightly smaller socket onto it and try to unscrew it - I've done this in the past but it is risky.
    2 - drill it in the centre and try an easy-out - risky as I've snapped an easy-out in the past
    3 - get some nice person with a 'portable' mig welder to weld a hex nut on the top of the torx head
    4 - use my Dremel and a TC burr and take the torx head off - then deal with the headless head bolt when I'v removed the head

    Recently I lost my 'key' to remove the lock nut on the road wheels. My mechanic lent me a set of nut removers - left hand threaded and they unscrewed the lock nuts easy as. Is there on small enough to fit the head of an E12 torx nut?

    The underside of the engine cover!
    [​IMG]