Joe_H
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Freelander Project IV (Bertie)
- Thread starter Alibro
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blue beasty
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Undoubtedly the best way to resolve differences of opinion is to fling personal insults....
Joe_H
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Crumbs - this thread has turned a bit Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" - I wasn't expecting this!
Ali, Joe is concerned regarding tracking and dynamic kinematics of the suspension - but some personal experience from users, your own experience when you use the car, and some measurements of toe-angle change will reveal all.
I've just come back to this thread having watched some You Tube footage of FLs going off road/ Green Laning - and it seems quite clear that the car is amazingly capable, but limited by ground clearance...
Ali, Joe is concerned regarding tracking and dynamic kinematics of the suspension - but some personal experience from users, your own experience when you use the car, and some measurements of toe-angle change will reveal all.
I've just come back to this thread having watched some You Tube footage of FLs going off road/ Green Laning - and it seems quite clear that the car is amazingly capable, but limited by ground clearance...
PS Measurement of toe angle at various points in the "swing" of the suspension is not too hard to do - as Joe mentions, the easiest approach is to remove the springs and do it that way. I'm planning on doing this with a laser pointer and some card: the blue peter approach is all that is needed to reassure 
Gaj1612
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Alibro
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I decided some time ago that informed logical argument with Joe is as sensible as doing the same with Rache.
Wait a minute!
Rache would argue a black bird is white, Joe_h......
Rache ignores everything others say cause he knows better, Joe_h......
Rache keeps arguing he's right even when proven wrong, Joe_h......
Rache knows Bu**er all about VCU's, Joe_h......
Now it all makes sense
RACHE IS JOE_H!
Diesel Do
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Wonder what bearmach would make of joes accusations? They're a rather large company selling a 2" lift kit.
Alibro
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I wondered that myself. If what Joe says is correct (highly doubtful) every car regardless of make or model on the road with a lift kit should be impounded immediately, crushed and the owner thrown in prison for attempted murder.
Diesel Do
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Even solid axle ones change castor angle and offset the axle to one side
Diesel Do
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But what do I know. We're in the presence of a genius that apparently knows everything and has no respect for anyone. Whether it be individuals or businesses big or small.
Skinny Mike
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The old "To lift or not to lift" always causes arguments. Been on here over 8 years, and I've lost count of the disagreements.
Not a fan myself, but alot do like to do it. I've always found when I've been in a landy or other make that's been lifted, you can tell within a hundred yards if its a death trap. Then it's time to make your excuses and get out.
But things have moved on vastly over those 8 years, and the accumulation of knowledge has made the kits alot better and hopefully safer. And DD's kit is widely used with no bad feedback yet, on here or Facebook.
So it's your car Ali, do as you wish. @Joe_H means well, he just gets a bit carried away sometimes, but he has got your best interests at heart.
Anyway, I'm off to collect my Nobel peace prize now.
Mike
Not a fan myself, but alot do like to do it. I've always found when I've been in a landy or other make that's been lifted, you can tell within a hundred yards if its a death trap. Then it's time to make your excuses and get out.
But things have moved on vastly over those 8 years, and the accumulation of knowledge has made the kits alot better and hopefully safer. And DD's kit is widely used with no bad feedback yet, on here or Facebook.
So it's your car Ali, do as you wish. @Joe_H means well, he just gets a bit carried away sometimes, but he has got your best interests at heart.
Anyway, I'm off to collect my Nobel peace prize now.
Mike
Alibro
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Sorry mate your being Waaaaay to kind regarding Joe's choice of words. It's not the first time he has flung insults my direction so I'm getting used to it but have to say his constant tirades are getting tiresome.
Skinny Mike
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Fair enough, just give him a bit of time to reread what he's put. It is harsh, but he usually works out its a bit too much.
Fingers crossed
Mike
Nodge68
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Lifting the FL suspension 50mm will have some effects. However most of them can be sorted easy enough.
You have to remember that the air suspension LRs have the ability to set the suspension at different hights over a 100mm range.
Obviously those suspension systems are designed for this large range of hights.
A FL1 front suspension with a 50mm static lift will suffer a slight camber change and a toe setting change. The camber will go slightly more positive. This is easily corrected with camber adjustment bolts.
The toe will toe out more in the new raised position. Again it's easy to correct with a simple wheel alignment operation.
Caster angle will remain at the same, which is good because it's not adjustable.
Now this is where things get more complex.
The angle of the lower wishbone has changed on its outer end, it will follow a slightly different arc. At full droop, there will be some increase in camber, so inducing more positive, the higher it goes. This isn't really a problem in normal or off road driving.
Under compression the suspension will go more negative, this should be fine as it keeps the tyre flat to the road.
There might be a small increase in bump steer, but because of the FL1s long track rods. This really shouldn't be an issue. Many modern cars suffer from bump steer, and no one notices it.
Under heavy braking (dive) the suspension will go negative camber and toe in marginally. As to how much would need careful measurements because of the interaction between the arcs of the wishbone and track rod.
So I would think most errors induced by the lift can be adjusted to smaller errors. Couple this too fat, soft sidewall tyres, the geometry errors become insignificant.
The rear is a little more complex. Mostly because the rear suspension is a more complex arraignment.
A 50mm static lift will indeed alter more settings than the front.
All three settings get upset. So I'll look at each in turn.
Camber will go positive with the lift. This can be adjusted with camber bolts, just like the front. Additional negative camber is what's needed here.
Toe will toe out slightly with a lift. The is adjustable, so can be dialed to factory toe setting again. There will be some increase in bump steer however. The wheels tow in more as the suspension is compressed.
The standard setup suffers bump steer anyway and most don't notice.
Caster will also increase with the lift. This could be corrected with a longer or adjustable tie rod. However as an increase in rear caster helps control rear wheel lift under heavy braking. I can't see a couple of ° extra caster causing much of an issue. But it is possible to correct if needed.
Ideally the best way to set up the suspension is to remove the springs and support the body at the new hight, on alignment rig. Sensors are then fitted to the hubs and a plot taken of the full motion of travel. The suspension can the be adjusted to mimic the factory settings as close as possible.
This will get the Freelander driving as close as is possible to the factory hight.
You have to remember that the air suspension LRs have the ability to set the suspension at different hights over a 100mm range.
Obviously those suspension systems are designed for this large range of hights.
A FL1 front suspension with a 50mm static lift will suffer a slight camber change and a toe setting change. The camber will go slightly more positive. This is easily corrected with camber adjustment bolts.
The toe will toe out more in the new raised position. Again it's easy to correct with a simple wheel alignment operation.
Caster angle will remain at the same, which is good because it's not adjustable.
Now this is where things get more complex.
The angle of the lower wishbone has changed on its outer end, it will follow a slightly different arc. At full droop, there will be some increase in camber, so inducing more positive, the higher it goes. This isn't really a problem in normal or off road driving.
Under compression the suspension will go more negative, this should be fine as it keeps the tyre flat to the road.
There might be a small increase in bump steer, but because of the FL1s long track rods. This really shouldn't be an issue. Many modern cars suffer from bump steer, and no one notices it.
Under heavy braking (dive) the suspension will go negative camber and toe in marginally. As to how much would need careful measurements because of the interaction between the arcs of the wishbone and track rod.
So I would think most errors induced by the lift can be adjusted to smaller errors. Couple this too fat, soft sidewall tyres, the geometry errors become insignificant.
The rear is a little more complex. Mostly because the rear suspension is a more complex arraignment.
A 50mm static lift will indeed alter more settings than the front.
All three settings get upset. So I'll look at each in turn.
Camber will go positive with the lift. This can be adjusted with camber bolts, just like the front. Additional negative camber is what's needed here.
Toe will toe out slightly with a lift. The is adjustable, so can be dialed to factory toe setting again. There will be some increase in bump steer however. The wheels tow in more as the suspension is compressed.
The standard setup suffers bump steer anyway and most don't notice.
Caster will also increase with the lift. This could be corrected with a longer or adjustable tie rod. However as an increase in rear caster helps control rear wheel lift under heavy braking. I can't see a couple of ° extra caster causing much of an issue. But it is possible to correct if needed.
Ideally the best way to set up the suspension is to remove the springs and support the body at the new hight, on alignment rig. Sensors are then fitted to the hubs and a plot taken of the full motion of travel. The suspension can the be adjusted to mimic the factory settings as close as possible.
This will get the Freelander driving as close as is possible to the factory hight.
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Diesel Do
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The lift kit is standard to all other designs. It's actually about 3mm lower than the bearmach one, not that that makes any real world difference. I understand the geometry changes. I have first hand experience of how they behave when lifted. I have been around modified Land Rovers for a long time and can safely say that a lifted Freelander is probably the best handling of the lot. The long arm steering design was done deliberately to reduce geometry changes because of the relatively long travel suspension.
GrumpyGel
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WTF Joe!
This forum isn't here for you to continuously spout lies and offense.
Get a bloody life and sort your problems out.
I'm pretty sure regulars have now learnt that they should ignore everything you say, but I'm also pretty sure that you are scaring new members away with your offensive remarks to them, and with it the future lifeblood of the forum.
I will often say where I have little experience and am voicing opinion in the hope it may help, even if I am puffing on a e-Cig. At least I'm honest the recognition of my technical abilities eh?
If you think we are all prats on here, you know where the door is.
This forum isn't here for you to continuously spout lies and offense.
Get a bloody life and sort your problems out.
I'm pretty sure regulars have now learnt that they should ignore everything you say, but I'm also pretty sure that you are scaring new members away with your offensive remarks to them, and with it the future lifeblood of the forum.
I will often say where I have little experience and am voicing opinion in the hope it may help, even if I am puffing on a e-Cig. At least I'm honest the recognition of my technical abilities eh?
If you think we are all prats on here, you know where the door is.
Alibro
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On a happier note and back on track, after taking my pics of Bertie the fire engine sitting up begging today, the camber on the front wheels looks way better.
I didn't like with the way the front wheels were sitting after the original installation so a couple of days ago I loosened off the strut bolts and had another go at setting the camber with a trolley jack under the brake disks to try and push the struts into the correct position. Now they look much better with the wheels sitting nice and square to the ground. I also adjusted the tracking a bit as it was visibly toeing out way too much. I know it isn't possible to get it anywhere close to right by eye but the main reason for having a go was from past experience the tyre depots will refuse to touch it if the TRE and steering arms haven't been loosened up before you go. Last time they were right though as the TRE bolt sheared off on me when I tried to loosen it.
Once the new trailing arms arrive and I've confirmed they are correct I'll remove the old ones and have a go at extending them. I know it would make more sense to work on the new ones but I need to know I can do it safely first before trashing my new arms.
I also had to order a new boot window regulator today as the one in my wifes daily driver gave up over the weekend. Guess where I got a nice shiny new one to replace it. I also swapped my door lock mechanism with hers as it had been playing up a bit recently so as usual it's been two steps forward and one back.
Also been thinking I might copy all the sensible posts (and mine of course) from this thread to a new one once the nonsense of the last few days dies down. I don't want my build thread polluted with the stuff that has been posted recently plus there were other unrelated conversations going on from time to time. Will probably wait until I have the car on the road before doing that though.
I didn't like with the way the front wheels were sitting after the original installation so a couple of days ago I loosened off the strut bolts and had another go at setting the camber with a trolley jack under the brake disks to try and push the struts into the correct position. Now they look much better with the wheels sitting nice and square to the ground. I also adjusted the tracking a bit as it was visibly toeing out way too much. I know it isn't possible to get it anywhere close to right by eye but the main reason for having a go was from past experience the tyre depots will refuse to touch it if the TRE and steering arms haven't been loosened up before you go. Last time they were right though as the TRE bolt sheared off on me when I tried to loosen it.
Once the new trailing arms arrive and I've confirmed they are correct I'll remove the old ones and have a go at extending them. I know it would make more sense to work on the new ones but I need to know I can do it safely first before trashing my new arms.
I also had to order a new boot window regulator today as the one in my wifes daily driver gave up over the weekend. Guess where I got a nice shiny new one to replace it.
I also swapped my door lock mechanism with hers as it had been playing up a bit recently so as usual it's been two steps forward and one back. Also been thinking I might copy all the sensible posts (and mine of course) from this thread to a new one once the nonsense of the last few days dies down. I don't want my build thread polluted with the stuff that has been posted recently plus there were other unrelated conversations going on from time to time. Will probably wait until I have the car on the road before doing that though.
Nodge68
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I always set my tracking by eye Ali. I look at how the tyres wear and adjust it accordingly. My tyres now wear flat, the steering is light and positive and the car tracks straight on the road. Oh and the steering wheel is bang on central too.
So if you know what to look for and how to correct errors. Setting the tracking at home is very possible
So if you know what to look for and how to correct errors. Setting the tracking at home is very possible
Alibro
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Jeeeeez Nodge, you ain't qualified to touch your tracking. Your car will now be a lethal death trap and your going to kill a classroom full of 4 year olds.I always set my tracking by eye Ali. I look at how the tyres wear and adjust it accordingly. My tyres now wear flat, the steering is light and positive and the car tracks straight on the road. Oh and the steering wheel is bang on central too.
So if you know what to look for and how to correct errors. Setting the tracking at home is very possible
YOU MONSTER
You should be arrested, flogged and crucified immediately.
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