Freelander 1 Freelander EV

potus said:

Just as a matter of interest and apologies for being slightly off topic, have you been watching the Audi RS Q E-tron at the Dakar rally this year? what an amazing piece of kit!

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I would hope so, they have what is effectively a limitless budget.

Nodge68 said:

I would hope so, they have what is effectively a limitless budget.

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I saw a very large forklift truck the other day which was electric. The size of each batteries would not in the boot of the freelander.
Hate to know how often they change them during the day.

waiting to see the waste recycling battery powered trucks round Oxford.

Hicap phill said:

I saw a very large forklift truck the other day which was electric. The size of each batteries would not in the boot of the freelander.
Hate to know how often they change them during the day.

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Fork lift batteries are normally lead acid, and there'll last a full day's work.

Batteries used in EVs have a much higher charge density, basically they provide 4 times as much energy as lead acid for the same volume, while weighing under ½ as much.

Hicap phill said:

I saw a very large forklift truck the other day which was electric. The size of each batteries would not in the boot of the freelander.
Hate to know how often they change them during the day.

waiting to see the waste recycling battery powered trucks round Oxford.

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Not sure about trucks but it's criminal that post vans around here are still diesel. None of them do more than 20 or 30 miles per day and they are all back at base by 4pm. This is the perfect time to plug in for 'vehicle to grid' so they can put a few kWh onto the grid at peak time before recharging overnight on off peak. Royal mail could be saving millions by going electric, never mind the benefit to the environment.

Alibro said:

Not sure about trucks but it's criminal that post vans around here are still diesel. None of them do more than 20 or 30 miles per day and they are all back at base by 4pm. This is the perfect time to plug in for 'vehicle to grid' so they can put a few kWh onto the grid at peak time before recharging overnight on off peak. Royal mail could be saving millions by going electric, never mind the benefit to the environment.

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Most of the local DpD have gone electric
Now the local Amazon are going elec as well.
Now if only they allowed people to park/charge the motors when the vans were out delivering.
The amount of service stations which have EV cars waiting to charge is mad.

Hicap phill said:

The amount of service stations which have EV cars waiting to charge is mad.

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If the EV owner has a way to charge at home, then they'll do that in preference, as EV night rate is really cheap, something like 2p per mile cheap, so a huge saving on my FL2's 20p + per mile fuel cost.

Nodge68 said:

If the EV owner has a way to charge at home, then they'll do that in preference, as EV night rate is really cheap, something like 2p per mile cheap, so a huge saving on my FL2's 20p + per mile fuel cost.

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3 miles per kWh seems to be average so at 18p per kwH the cost per mile will be approx 6p without a cheaper off peak tariff. Of course the price of electricity depends on your supplier and whatever deal your on.
If you have solar panels then the price will be more like 5p per kWh as that's around what you'll get feeding leccy back to the grid. In that case it's more like 1.6p per mile.

Has anyone seen Dave's latest video?

I was aware I probably wouldn't be able to change the tax designation to have my car zero tax but if I'm going to have the same issue as Dave then it looks like I need to change the car I'm going to use.
I have to be honest it had occurred I should be looking for a pre 2001 car but when I found the 04 SE model I couldn't help myself.
I still have a lot of work to get the test mule going properly so have some time but if this stupidity isn't sorted soon I'll have to MOT the car I bought, sell it and look for a clean 2000 or very early 2001 model.

This is obviously something that needs looking at but it won't be high on the priority list for MPs so any change in legislation is likely to be some time away. What a shame though. I've been watching all this with great interest as I see these kind of high quality conversions (like yours ali) as a really good thing.

I do wonder what the significance of 2001+ vehicles is in this. Specifically what is the act that doesn't allow the change?

kernowsvenski said:

This is obviously something that needs looking at but it won't be high on the priority list for MPs so any change in legislation is likely to be some time away. What a shame though. I've been watching all this with great interest as I see these kind of high quality conversions (like yours ali) as a really good thing.

I do wonder what the significance of 2001+ vehicles is in this. Specifically what is the act that doesn't allow the change?

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My understanding is it's to do with a change in legislation that is from 2001 on. Before then car tax was based on their engine capacity or some such.
Basically at some stage the DVLA were presented with a question whether one rule (Co2 emissions cannot be changed) or another (EV's should be zero tax) should be implemented and of course they plumped for the one that A. Gave them more money and B. Was less likely to mean they would get in trouble with their bosses. Common sense and the spirit of the law counted for nothing.

I can still buy a pre 2001 Freelander so my project is not dead but it seems the DVLA are determined to kill any post 2001 EV conversion.

Alibro said:

I can still buy a pre 2001 Freelander so my project is not dead but it seems the DVLA are determined to kill any post 2001 EV conversion.

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This is rather disturbing news Ali, and unless there's a huge number of people writing to MPs to get this stupid IMO legislation reversed, it seems we'll just have to work around it.
Thankfully the Freelander was available from 97, so there could well be a way around it, although somewhat inconvenient to have to convert another one. It's also possible to swap everything from a facelift to a pre-2001 FL, so it'll look and feel like a later one.

I'm wondering if it's possible to simply get a conversion re-registered using the self built vehicle route, although that wouldn't be without it's own problems.

It looks like it might also fit in the category of a Radically altered vehicle route. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

IMO it's less environmentally damaging to use the functional electrical components from a written off EV, and transfer those components into an existing but more polluting diesel vehicle.

Maybe the media need to get involved? How about the Fully Charged YouTube channel, I'm sure Robert would be interested in this particular piece of dumb legislation.

Nodge68 said:

This is rather disturbing news Ali, and unless there's a huge number of people writing to MPs to get this stupid IMO legislation reversed, it seems we'll just have to work around it.
Thankfully the Freelander was available from 97, so there could well be a way around it, although somewhat inconvenient to have to convert another one. It's also possible to swap everything from a facelift to a pre-2001 FL, so it'll look and feel like a later one.

I'm wondering if it's possible to simply get a conversion re-registered using the self built vehicle route, although that wouldn't be without it's own problems.

It looks like it might also fit in the category of a Radically altered vehicle route. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

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I suspect/hope Daves problem is more to do with his MOT centre misinterpreting or not knowing the regulations regarding this issue. The guys he mentioned who sneaked their V5 changes through to avoid tax are in a different situation and we shouldn't confuse the two. Unfortunately the people who created the legislation didn't allow for conversions so everything is down to interpretation.
Radically Altered has in the past been interpreted by the DVLA to mean changes to the chassis or body of the car not the engine. That's why I've been at pains to avoid cutting or welding to the chassis.

Nodge68 said:

IMO it's less environmentally damaging to use the functional electrical components from a written off EV, and transfer those components into an existing but more polluting diesel vehicle.

Maybe the media need to get involved? How about the Fully Charged YouTube channel, I'm sure Robert would be interested in this particular piece of dumb legislation.

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You're right of course but for the civil servants involved covering their backs and avoiding hard decisions is their priority.
Letters from MP's are the best way to kick civil servants into action so I will be writing to mine.

Alibro said:

I suspect/hope Daves problem is more to do with his MOT centre misinterpreting or not knowing the regulations regarding this issue. The guys he mentioned who sneaked their V5 changes through to avoid tax are in a different situation and we shouldn't confuse the two.

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There's something weird going on with his comments Ali.
I posted a long comment about the issue, and how there may well be a way around it, by using some other DVLA route, like the in the DVLA link I put above, and now oddly that comment has vanished.
Another similar comment that I read has also disappeared too.
Maybe Dave doesn't want any help.

Nodge68 said:

There's something weird going on with his comments Ali.
I posted a long comment about the issue, and how there may well be a way around it, by using some other DVLA route, like the in the DVLA link I put above, and now oddly that comment has vanished.
Another similar comment that I read has also disappeared too.
Maybe Dave doesn't want any help.

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I think YouTube removes comments that have links. I've seen loads of alerts from YouTube where I can still see the comment as an alert but it's not below the video.
I'd be shocked if he had removed your comment.

Alibro said:

I think YouTube removes comments that have links. I've seen loads of alerts from YouTube where I can still see the comment as an alert but it's not below the video.
I'd be shocked if he had removed your comment.

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Maybe YT does remove posts with links, but that seems a bit silly. The post I read, which then disappeared didn't have a link, but mine did.
Strange things are happening.

What is the process of getting the DVLA to re-classify a vehicle's emission classification? I want to convert my MGF - not to electric straightaway, but to EU3 or EU4 (which would be straightforward and would avoid the need to pay the ULEZ charge everytime I drive my car). But if I did that, would I then be prohibited from re-classifying it again further down the road???

This does seem like a massive kick in the crotch for not just a few hobbiests such as Ali and Dave, but for a thriving cottage industry. I'm going to suggest that you reach out to some of the turn key electric conversion companies for clarification on what they are doing to get MOT and or reclassification. You could start with places such as:
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/
https://falconelectric.co.uk/ev-conversions/
https://www.keithmichaels.co.uk/news/can-you-convert-a-car-to-electric-in-the-uk/
https://www.londonelectriccars.com/
https://www.electrongarage.co.uk/

I don't think the radically altered vehicle will work for your project as the vehicle has only one less than a full set of originality points. Ironically, given how much effort you put into keeping it as original as possible, you might need to deliberately hack it up a bit to nullify some of that originality to lower it's score as a means of making it radical enough to reregister is a radically altered vehicle. And yes, I see the irony in this given the knots you've tied yourself in in the pursuit of originality for the purposes of DVLA approval. However, if you want some ideas on how you can deliberately and beneficially radicalise the mule, I'd suggest you could:

• Fabricate in modified struts to take longer travel suspension units with corrected camber built into the new design.
• Brutalise a front subframe and hubs onto the rear axle and replace the rear toe control rods with an electric hicas rack often removed from skylines being reconfigured for drifting
• Hack into the chassis rails to tie in front and rear winch trays to the strongest part of the monocoque
• Hack the bee-jesus out of the floor pan to refashion it as a full length double skinned battery compartment with seats mounted to it's top section
• Discard the altimotor --> powersteering pump arrangement and fit an alternative power steering system such as:
  • electro-hydraulic arrangement from something like an MR2 Mk.II / SW20 (90's model)
  • electric steering column conversion using the poplular corsa D column + eBay controller
• Hack further into the body's structure frame rails / cross members / bulkheads, to put on utility mountings for implements such as a snow plough / road sweeper / specframe lifting sustem
  • Those are a stretch, just trying to put some distance between the original diesel passenger car and it's reincarnated form and function

In case anyone is concerned I've given up on this project I can assure you that is not the case. Things have slowed a lot for various reasons but I'm still plugging away at it. Just at my own very slow pace.
This weekend I made a couple of steps forward with the battery management. I have the temporary BMS loom made so have the complete pack joined up and connected to the BMS.
Yesterday I linked up the 12V to the BMS and saw CAN messages spewing out of it. I haven't tried translating the CAN yet but will get around to that sometime. In theory (if I've connected it correctly) I should be able to see the voltage of each cell and hopefully even be able to make it balance the cells.
Today I persuaded the dc-dc converter to provide 14V to the auxiliary battery which is an important advance but the big one is charging. If I can crack that then I will know exactly what needs installed and get on with finishing the build.

This is the mess my garage is in

Sweet mother of god, that's a lot of wires!!!