Freelander 1 Freelander EV

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I made a start on the floor of the battery box this evening and got a little welding done before running out of gas. :oops: Hopefully I can get more gas tomorrow
I decided to weld in the floor as it will not need to be removed and strength is most important.
I first tacked it in then tacked between the tacks. I don't have wide mouthed clamps so just pressed the plate down with a hammer while welding

IMG_20210713_214408933.jpg


The smaller plates need trimming before being welded in but I have to admit I now wish I hadn't bothered with the two smaller batteries in this box. The extra time and work would be better put somewhere else but I've started so I'll finish. :(
Some day. :rolleyes:
 
Alibro said:
Amazing tech from JCB.

Got to wonder why we aren't hearing of others doing the same.
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There are many reasons why hydrogen could be used in this sort of application. The stumbling point is getting and transporting, and storing the hydrogen.
Ok it's the most abundant element in the universe, but actually getting hydrogen in a green way is currently not widely used . Renewable energy can be used to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen, using electrolysis, which of course is green.
However all commercially available hydrogen available in the UK (and 95% of the world's supply) comes from fossil fuel, using a process called steam reforming, where natural gas (methane) is partially oxidised to form hydrogen and carbon monoxide.
This means currently a hydrogen powered vehicle (being in a piston engine, or hydrogen fuel cell) is by no means green, so straight electric power is a better choice.

I believe there are currently only 3 hydrogen filling stations in the county, which means its rather hard to get.

I watched James May driving his new 300 mile range hydrogen (fuel cell) car, which bizarrely he has to drive a 120 miles round trip to fill it up. In this instance, an electric vehicle is a better choice, as it can be charged at home.

Hydrogen fuel cells work like a battery, where hydrogen and oxygen are combined to produce electricity, which then drives an electric motor.

Hydrogen can also be used in a piston engine, much like any other fossil fuel, but as current hydrogen supplies come from natural gas source its currently pointless to use it in a vehicle.
 
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Nodge68 said:
There are many reasons why hydrogen could be used in this sort of application. The stumbling point is getting and transporting, and storing the hydrogen.
Ok it's the most abundant element in the universe, but actually getting hydrogen in a green way is currently not widely used . Renewable energy can be used to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen, using electrolysis, which of course is green.
However all commercially available hydrogen available in the UK (and 95% of the world's supply) comes from fossil fuel, using a process called steam reforming, where natural gas (methane) is partially oxidised to form hydrogen and carbon monoxide.
This means currently a hydrogen powered vehicle (being in a piston engine, or hydrogen fuel cell) is by no means green, so straight electric power is a better choice.

I believe there are currently only 3 hydrogen filling stations in the county, which means its rather hard to get.

I watched James May driving his new 300 mile range hydrogen (fuel cell) car, which bizarrely he has to drive a 120 miles round trip to fill it up. In this instance, an electric vehicle is a better choice, as it can be charged at home.

Hydrogen fuel cells work like a battery, where hydrogen and oxygen are combined to produce electricity, which then drives an electric motor.

Hydrogen can also be used in a piston engine, much like any other fossil fuel, but as current hydrogen supplies come from natural gas source its currently pointless to use it in a vehicle.
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At the minute Hydrogen is not green but if we keep building wind turbines and solar farms at the current (or maybe accelerated) rate there is no reason why it can't be in the future.
It is pointless for cars as battery capacity and manufacture will quickly make building hydrogen filling stations around the world irrelevant but I can see a time when it could be used for commercial vehicles.
 
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Alibro said:
At the minute Hydrogen is not green but if we keep building wind turbines and solar farms at the current (or maybe accelerated) rate there is no reason why it can't be in the future.
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This is very true, and stored hydrogen could also be used as a vehicle fuel, or as battery storage solution, by feeding the hydrogen though fuel cells, to make electricity for the grid at times of low or zero renewable output.
Alibro said:
It is pointless for cars as battery capacity and manufacture will quickly make building hydrogen filling stations around the world irrelevant but I can see a time when it could be used for commercial vehicles.
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Construction machinery I can see being a good use for a hydrogen powered piston engine, and HGVs too, both of which require a high amount of energy being stored on board, with actually very little space to store it.
As long as the hydrogen is sorted responsibly, then I've no objections to its use.

There is the safety aspect which needs addressing, as hydrogen explodes if ignited, whereas petrol vapour burns rapidly, and diesel doesn't really burn at all.

So obviously special on vehicle storage is required, but I think most of those issues are pretty much sorted now.
 
Nodge68 said:
This is very true, and stored hydrogen could also be used as a vehicle fuel, or as battery storage solution, by feeding the hydrogen though fuel cells, to make electricity for the grid at times of low or zero renewable output.

Construction machinery I can see being a good use for a hydrogen powered piston engine, and HGVs too, both of which require a high amount of energy being stored on board, with actually very little space to store it.
As long as the hydrogen is sorted responsibly, then I've no objections to its use.

There is the safety aspect which needs addressing, as hydrogen explodes if ignited, whereas petrol vapour burns rapidly, and diesel doesn't really burn at all.

So obviously special on vehicle storage is required, but I think most of those issues are pretty much sorted now.
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Seeing the way these electric vehicles burn is a tad worrying...
 
Aye, John is 100% right on grey hydrogen created through steam reforming being totally pointless, but it's even worse than he portrays it...

The feedstock of the steam reforming, the natural gas, is obtained from offshore oil rigs, from wells drilled by diesel powered oil rigs that burn literally TONNES of fuel per day. Like when I was a motorman babysitting engines on rigs we used to have to top up the day day tank from the settling tank, then transfer from the hull tanks to replenish the settling tank. On a Dynamic Positioning rig which holds itself in place with thrusters large electrically powered thrusters that contain ships propellers, this would be somewhere between 10-12 cubic metres (1,000L) per shift, so twenty to twenty four thousand litres of diesel per day when drilling dependent upon drilling conditions like rock hardness, mud pump flow rates etc, and what third party equipment was also being used. Less when they were "dicking about" with the well with things like wireline etc where power consumption would drop from ~6MW on a balls out drilling DP semisubmersible to ~0.8MW on an idling jackup....

When the well is completed, it's tapped into a production platform who run 1970s vintage gas turbines, which are obviously not the most efficient of things, and those turbines are constantly burning thousands and thousands of cubic feet of gas per day to power the platform and it's associated equipment like the Main Oil Line pumps and Gas Compressors and Export Pumps etc, so there is already a hefty carbon footprint by the time the gas gets into the pipeline. Then the produced gas gets sent ashore, processed at another very intensive gas terminal, then the terminal can export the gas to a steam reforming plant where the real horrors begin.

So yeah, in summary, grey (steam reformed methane based) hydrogen:
  • Huge carbon footprint to make the well the methane feedstock is extracted from
    • plus support costs like supply boats + crew change helicopters
  • Huge carbon footprint for the platform that compresses the gas and pumps it ashore
    • plus support costs like supply boats + crew change helicopters
  • Huge carbon footprint for the terminal/refinery that receives the produced hydrocarbons and processes them
    • to be fair, some plants have onsite wind, or receive electricity from the grid which is partially renewably sourced, but others generate electricity on site from gas / diesel
  • Then the hydrocarbon "natural gas" is partially burned to make hydrogen, somewhat akin to how coal was partially burned to make "town gas"
 
The problems with lithium batteried vehicles are mainly safety related, you've got ~400V in those batteries which in a crash could electrify the body and electrocute the occupants and or emergency services. In the event of a fire, those batteries are what is called a category delta fire, it cannot be extinguished, as the burning batteries contain all the elements needed to sustain the fire, kind of like when you see scuba divers using flares underwater... However, Hydrogen has it's own problems, to liquify it it needs to be compressed to silly pressures and or cooled down to silly low cryogenic temperatures, and it's super reactive, and can do nasty things like embrittle steel. Although it's not totally alien tech as we've been playing with LPG / "Autogas" for cars since the seventies? As such we have some technology for safely storing high pressure gaseous fuel in a vehicle. For example LPG tanks have a pressure valve in them which in the event of a fire as the gas volume / pressure increases slowly releases the gas to be burned in a controlled manner with a flame akin to a plumbers torch, rather than the gas tank exploding like something out of a hollywood movie.

Personally, were I in a position of power, my solution would be induction loops placed in the major highways to recharge electric vehicles on the move, and similar loops in most parking spaces in towns, and all the electricity would be coming from renewables + battery storage for load / demand balancing. Tidal power is a massively underutilised resource, I remember about ten years ago I was working on offshore windfarms, and while there wasn't a breath of wind, the tidal currents in the narrower parts of the southern sector of the North Sea and or the English Channel were such that the , boat had to weathervane into it and fight the current, About an hour before the DP Operator would call us off, we could actually feel the boat rattle through our feet as the thrusters laboured against the current, but naff all wind for the turbines to generate their keep..

There has recently been talk of doing something along these lines by electrifying highways, but the cheap janky version of it, with overhead powerlines on motorways for trucks to use with pantographs like trams:
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/research-calls-long-haul-e-highways-motorways-roads/
 
I've seen some impressive demonstrations of induction charging so there is no reason why that can't be done, certainly in carparks anyway. Roads are a bigger challenge.
While lithium batteries have their dangers I'm not aware of electric cars being inherently more dangerous or more likely to go on fire.
At any rate its not something I'm overly concerned about. I think we have become blasé about sitting on a 60 litre tank of petrol and the potential danger of it.
 
Alibro said:
At any rate its not something I'm overly concerned about. I think we have become blasé about sitting on a 60 litre tank of petrol and the potential danger of it.
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That's the thing, although regulations have made the petrol vehicles safer. Like in the 80s, manufacturers were mandated to put petrol tanks under the vehicle, between the axles, as this gave them greater protection in a collision. My Avenger tank is between the rear valence and rear axle, which would make it vulnerable in a rear impact. At some point tanks began to be made of polythene, which again makes them less likely to leak in a crash, although they would melt in a vehicle fire, but this is better than a metal tank not leaking, and potentially exploding when it ruptures.
Alibro said:
While lithium batteries have their dangers I'm not aware of electric cars being inherently more dangerous or more likely to go on fire.
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I don't believe they are, but you can bet some in the fossil fuel industry would make public every incident of an EV catching fire.
 
I have often thought that hydrogen, rather than battery power would eventually be the answer for transport for the masses (despite the danger) due to the storage/distribution networks that already exist only requiring upgrading - although I know that is no mean feat - rather than the huge investment required in infrastructure that is required for the charging of electric vehicles, and that it could mean we could run our vehicles in a manner very similar to how we do today - i.e you have a tank, and when it runs low you fill it up in a few mins and know your range. However, I have zero knowledge of how hydrogen is produced and now my only understanding is from what you folks have posted here (I shall research more). The abundance of hydrogen (should it be possible to produce and distribute in a clean and safe way) also makes it seem to have more potential to me when compared to the heavy metals required for today's technology. That said, I'm watching the lithium prospecting going on down here in Cornwall with great interest.
 
As much as I acknowledge EV's are the way of the future if we are to save our planet's climate, albeit as part of larger reforms across many areas of our society and economy, they are not without challenges, and I don't think they are MORE dangerous, but EV's present DIFFERENT risks, that IMHO are not fully addressed / mitigated yet. YET being the operative word in that sentence, and I don't claim to have all the answers, but certain risks and controls just need common sense, such as:
  • Risk to emergency services of electrocution arising from batteries / cabling interacting with bodywork after collision
    • Equip First Responders with electrical test equipment to check for potential difference to ground
    • Train First Responders in the use of said equipment and and isolator switches or isolation procedures
    • Equip First Responders with high voltage protection equipment such as HV gloves and ground mats and train them on the equipments usage
  • Inappropriate firefighting chemicals and procedures exacerbating the situation in an EV crash / fire
    • Train firefighters to recognise EV from the offset and introduces best practices in electrical safety
    • Use specialist firefighting chemicals for EV fires - we are only talking about a couple of special extinguishers per fire appliance here
  • Deterioration in EV wiring and insulation over time
    • introduce special checks in MOT and or a special periodical thorough electrical inspection at VOSA centres
And so on and so forth, but if this is what a clanky can come up with while letting his dinner settle down, I wonder what a dedicated think tank of electrically savvy engineers would come up with...

...Talking about electrically savy... I was looking for a standalone transmission controller, and came across EV BMW mating a leaf moter to a ZF 5HP24 - and I'm now confused, I thought EV's and automatics were incompatible as you'd have to keep the motor spinning to drive the torque convertor and pump to power the hydraulics in the transmission, and thus waste a whole heap of energy? Any insights Ali?
https://www.evbmw.com/index.php/side-projects/automatic-gearbox-controller
 
Jayridium said:
  • Risk to emergency services of electrocution arising from batteries / cabling interacting with bodywork after collision
    • Equip First Responders with electrical test equipment to check for potential difference to ground
    • Train First Responders in the use of said equipment and and isolator switches or isolation procedures
    • Equip First Responders with high voltage protection equipment such as HV gloves and ground mats and train them on the equipments usage
Click to expand...

On this note, I wonder how current practices will change. I work for highways on the electrical side, streetlights, traffic signals and other tech etc and I'm sure that it is already being thought about how existing protocols need to be improved. However, finding an isolation point for a knocked down street lighting column is obviously far less dangerous than making a battery pack safe within the mangled remains of potentially multiple vehicles.
 
There are significant risks of concern with accidents and isolation of power. Even if there was an isolator switch, and not sure if it is legislated, there could be internal battery damage and short circuits that cannot be isolated.
A between cell isolator that operates on impact would add complexity but could help prevent the types of issues that are being discussed here.
 
kernowsvenski said:
I work for highways on the electrical side, streetlights, traffic signals and other tech etc and I'm sure that it is already being thought about how existing protocols need to be improved.
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That's an interesting job.
Would you happen to know how I can get the metal-halide street lamp outside my house swapped for an LED, like the other one at the other end of my terrace? The halide gives dreadful light bleed, right through the house. :(
kernowsvenski said:
However, finding an isolation point for a knocked down street lighting column is obviously far less dangerous than making a battery pack safe within the mangled remains of potentially multiple vehicles
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Electric vehicles have safety systems built into the battery packs, which are designed to kill the HV should the vehicle be involved in an incident.
I believe that the fire and rescue services are also fully briefed on how to deal with the electrical side of things.

I'm looking forward to EVs getting affordable, and the prices of used battery packs dropping in cost too, so I can make my own Freelander EV. :)
 
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