Freelander 1 Freelander EV

Let me preface this by saying that I'm just bouncing ideas off you here, this isn't gospel taken from any manuals...

However, I wonder if the control wires you put on the battery are expecting an ECU driven PWM or analogue signal rather than a steady voltage? Try putting them on a dimmer switch / other POT. Either that or they might be expecting their supply to come from a pressure switch that switches the pump off when pressure is reached?

Jayridium said:

However, I wonder if the control wires you put on the battery are expecting an ECU driven PWM

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That's my thought on it, which is what I suggested on the video comments.

I didn't look at the video on youtube, only in the embedded form in the post, but if the two of us have suggested the same thing, coming at this from differing backgrounds, it's unlikely we'd both be wrong, but if we are right you can take the gold star as you did post it first

@Nodge68 Do you happen to know the working pressure of a freelander's power steering system? 'Reason I ask is I might try and put together a shopping list for Ali to plumb in a pressure switch to control the pump.

Jayridium said:

@Nodge68 Do you happen to know the working pressure of a freelander's power steering system? 'Reason I ask is I might try and put together a shopping list for Ali to plumb in a pressure switch to control the pump.

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I can do better than that that.
Here's all the PS information from the LR service manual.

It shows the flow control valve is set to 5 to 6 litres a minute. The pressure relief valve is set at 120 to 127 Bar.

You guys are awesome but I think there may be an issue with my pump.
This guy connected it with both wires directly to 12V and it worked as expected.


So I tried Johns suggestion of connecting it directly to itself.
It didn't go well.

Alibro said:

You guys are awesome but I think there may be an issue with my pump.

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I think there is.

Alibro said:

This guy connected it with both wires directly to 12V and it worked as expected.

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That's positive.

Alibro said:

So I tried Johns suggestion of connecting it directly to itself.
It didn't go well.

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I didn't suggest that Ali, as that would be disastrous.

Alibro said:

You guys are awesome but I think there may be an issue with my pump.

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This pump is very similar to that I remember being fitted to the Citroën Saxo Ali. I'm sure those only ran when the engine was running ( possible via the alternator waring lamp wire), so only giving +12v, when the engine was running.
I'm pretty sure the Saxo had a 70 Amp relay for the PS pump too.
One thing I remember about the Saxo, was the PS pump speeded up when the steering was turned, dropping to a lower speed when doing no work, just like the one in that video you linked. So this seems to be the reverse of the way yours is running, which means yours could well be faulty.

Hi Ali, Thanks for making a mess of your workshop to entertain us all with that wee video clip, Am I right in saying you did some mucking about with an arduino reading CANBUS? That being so, you could easily set up an Arduino to read a pressure sensor to decide when to fire a Solid State Relay / Transistor to activate the pump. Failing which you could put a simple pressure switch on the pipework to switch activate the pump by controlling the activation wires. If you want to go there I can give you a hand piecing together the fittings / pipework, but it's worth saying that as the system is looking for ~120bar / ~1800psi we'need to do this right. Do we know what pressure the pump generates? And do you really want a pimp that's sitting whirring away sooking a couple of amps doing nothing when not actively steering?

Jayridium said:

Hi Ali, Thanks for making a mess of your workshop to entertain us all with that wee video clip,

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I'm here to please my audience.

Jayridium said:

Am I right in saying you did some mucking about with an arduino reading CANBUS? That being so, you could easily set up an Arduino to read a pressure sensor to decide when to fire a Solid State Relay / Transistor to activate the pump. Failing which you could put a simple pressure switch on the pipework to switch activate the pump by controlling the activation wires. If you want to go there I can give you a hand piecing together the fittings / pipework, but it's worth saying that as the system is looking for ~120bar / ~1800psi we'need to do this right.

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Yes mate, I'm a total novice at Arduino but I have used it. This sounds very interesting and was something I was wondering about myself. If you can help I'd be very grateful.

Jayridium said:

Do we know what pressure the pump generates? And do you really want a pimp that's sitting whirring away sooking a couple of amps doing nothing when not actively steering?

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No to both questions. It had already occurred that I could turn off the PS when the car reached a certain speed and as I'll be tapped into the CAN Bus I should be able to read wheel speeds to achieve this.
But first I need to work out what the issue is and probably the easiest way is to buy another PS pump. Worst case I can always relist it on ebay.

Happy new year bud, but if the aim is to save amps, I'm going to suggest going down the MGF column route, if the aim is to make this (malfunctioning) pump fit/work, I'll put something together to control it for you, let me know how you wish to proceed.

Jayridium said:

Happy new year bud, but if the aim is to save amps, I'm going to suggest going down the MGF column route, if the aim is to make this (malfunctioning) pump fit/work, I'll put something together to control it for you, let me know how you wish to proceed.

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Thanks bud and Happy New Year to you and all Landyzoners daft enough to be following my insanity.
I really appreciate your offer to tame it or help change to the MG steering and may take you up on it later but for now the priority is to just get this thing working so I can move on to the next thing. I can reduce amps by using a 100A dc motor controller so it might be worth including that in the equation. I had the pump connected through one and it seemed to be working well but would need testing.
A few folk have suggested I may need some back pressure on the pump to make it back down so I'm going to look at that today.

Alibro said:

A few folk have suggested I may need some back pressure on the pump to make it back down so I'm going to look at that today.

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That might work Ali. I see the pump you are using will supply 7 to 8 litres a minute, which is more than the Freelander engine pump's 5 to 6 Lpm. I'm thinking of a way to reduce the flow rate to the rack, but it's not easy with that system, as the flexible pipe can't be crimped, as it's likely wire reinforced.

Just a thought here, and completely outside the box. Have you thought about simply driving the original engine pump with an electric motor, maybe a modified alternator? It'd be easy to rig, could be made reasonably compact, would be quiet and the speed could be controlled by an electronic speed control.

Nodge68 said:

That might work Ali. I'm thinking of a way to reduce the flow rate to the rack, but it's not easy with that system, as the flexible pipe can't be crimped, as it's likely wire reinforced.

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I was thinking of trying to block one of the channels in the banjo bolt to and see what would happen but don't want to do permanent damage to it. I'll have a look around to see what I have.

Nodge68 said:

Just a thought here, and completely outside the box. Have you thought about simply driving the original engine pump with an electric motor, maybe a modified alternator? It'd be easy to rig, could be made reasonably compact, would be quiet and the speed could be controlled by an electronic speed control.

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That is certainly worth thinking about John. It could be tied into what @Jayridium was talking about too. It would be a lot more bulky but would have a lot of advantages.

Nodge68 said:

I see the pump you are using will supply 7 to 8 litres a minute, which is more than the Freelander engine pump's 5 to 6 Lpm

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Thanks for digging out those numbers John.
Lets take those numbers at face value.
I've been told the electric pump will draw around 60A and I saw numbers close to that so I'll assume 8Lpm = 60A
If the Freelander pump delivers 6Lpm and the losses are similar it would take approx 45A to drive it at max power but most of the time would much be less. An alternator motor might be suitable for that and I just happen to have a couple.
I knew there was a good reason I didn't list my engine for sale as the old power steering pump is still on it.
As you all know by now I'm a miserable git and like to achieve goals by using stuff I already have rather than just throwing money at it.

Alibro said:

I was thinking of trying to block one of the channels in the banjo bolt to and see what would happen but don't want to do permanent damage to it. I'll have a look around to see what I have.

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Be careful with that Ali, as you don't want small metallic particles getting into the rack or pump, as that would be bad.

Alibro said:

That is certainly worth thinking about John. It could be tied into what @Jayridium was talking about too. It would be a lot more bulky but would have a lot of advantages.

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Noise, custom operating strategies, and it could be hidden out of sight, as you can keep the original reservoir in the original position.

Alibro said:

I've been told the electric pump will draw around 60A and I saw numbers close to that so I'll assume 8Lpm = 60A
If the Freelander pump delivers 6Lpm and the losses are similar it would take approx 45A to drive it at max power but most of the time would much be less. An alternator motor might be suitable for that and I just happen to have a couple.

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Don't forget that the original engine pump has to deliver full pressure at or just above engine idle speed. To prevent over flowing the fluid at high engine speed running, the pump has a flow limit valve.
This simply wouldn't be needed on your own home brew alternator/motor, as you can set the speed to be just where you get maximum pressure, at minimum current draw.
The rack will simply bypass any fluid not used, so should offer minimal power losses, when the steering isn't being turned.

Alibro said:

I knew there was a good reason I didn't list my engine for sale as the old power steering pump is still on it.
As you all know by now I'm a miserable git and like to achieve goals by using stuff I already have rather than just throwing money at it.

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Like me Ali. Use what you have, as it's free, even if it's not always easy.

It might just work.

It might require a separate small battery pack and ebike controller but I already have everything I would need and it wouldn't be a big deal to rig up a charger to the mains inlet. Believe it or not they are bolted together in this photo and the belt is perfectly in line.
I just need a belt the right length now.

Alibro said:

It might just work.
View attachment 226683
It might require a separate small battery pack and ebike controller but I already have everything I would need and it wouldn't be a big deal to rig up a charger to the mains inlet. Believe it or not they are bolted together in this photo and the belt is perfectly in line.
I just need a belt the right length now.

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That's the way I was thinking it'd work Ali.
There's nothing wrong with adding the AC compressor too, if you want to use the original AC compressor too?

Nodge68 said:

That's the way I was thinking it'd work Ali.
There's nothing wrong with adding the AC compressor too, if you want to use the original AC compressor too?

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I'd need to check the numbers for an AC pump but at 60A x 13V the power steering pump could be drawing 800W. Even at 45A it would still draw close to 600W. From experience of the altymotor in my ebike it will start getting hot at that sort of power so I think adding AC could be too much for it.
I've found a short belt and made a bracket to hold the two so am now digging through my pile of ebike bits to get it rigged up.
Come back later and I hope to have something running so should have some proper numbers. .

Alibro said:

I'd need to check the numbers for an AC pump but at 60A x 13V the power steering pump could be drawing 800W. Even at 45A it would still draw close to 600W. From experience of the altymotor in my ebike it will start getting hot at that sort of power so I think adding AC could be too much for it.
I've found a short belt and made a bracket to hold the two so am now digging through my pile of ebike bits to get it rigged up.
Come back later and I hope to have something running so should have some proper numbers. .

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Don't forget that the engine pump doesn't need to spin very fast, something like 1000 RPM is enough to get full flow and pressure. So depending on your pulley ratios (looks like 3 to 1), the alternator/motor might only need 3000 RPM, which gives it a mechanical advantage. Also unless you're actually turning the steering, the pump will just circulate the fluid, with very little resistance, which means the motor won't be working hard most of the time.
Although I so understand that adding the AC, could well be more load than the alternator/motor is designed.