Fifth Gear - More Anti Bias

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H

hugh

Guest
Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
MPV?

They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
afford a Disco 3.

Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
had the last laugh - the air bags failed.

--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 
hugh wrote:
> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
> MPV?
>
> They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
> afford a Disco 3.

Probably because Renault love crashing things, they spend more on crash
testing than anyone else. I'd not be surprised in the least if Renault said
"Here, have an Espace, just give us the test results and the remains back",
whereas Ch5 would have had to pay for the old £1500 Disco.

They neglected to mention that they were crashing a 2004 design into a
1960's design chassis.
>
> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the
> disco had the last laugh - the air bags failed.

Suits me fine anyway, I've been buying cheap Range Rovers all over the shop
in the last few weeks because of the "4x4 Tax" panic. I doubt they'll ever
be this cheap again..


--
Pete M - The Corporate Penguin.
Renault Safrane 2.5 Executive,
Range Rover Vogue EFI LPG, Range Rover Vogue EFi x 2
Porsche 911 Carrera 3.2 *For Sale*
OMF#9

"This is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules"


 

hugh wrote:
> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
> MPV?
>
> They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
> afford a Disco 3.
>
> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
> had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
>
> --
> hugh
Yeah, I even thought about writing to 5th Gear, but what's the point?
In the interview with the skool mommies prior to the test, it was
noticeable that they were all driving X5's, XC90's etc. Not one Disco 1
in the interview, yet during the crash they said that the old Disco was
a typical vehicle found on the skool run, and cost the same as the 10
grand they spent on the Espace. All I can say is that they were done,
and should learn what 10 grand will really get them Disco-wise! Yet
another biased 5th gear test!
Pete.

 
In message <[email protected]>
[email protected] wrote:

>
> hugh wrote:
> > Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
> > MPV?
> >
> > They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> > used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> > design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
> > afford a Disco 3.
> >
> > Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
> > had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
> >
> > --
> > hugh
> Yeah, I even thought about writing to 5th Gear, but what's the point?
> In the interview with the skool mommies prior to the test, it was
> noticeable that they were all driving X5's, XC90's etc. Not one Disco 1
> in the interview, yet during the crash they said that the old Disco was
> a typical vehicle found on the skool run, and cost the same as the 10
> grand they spent on the Espace. All I can say is that they were done,
> and should learn what 10 grand will really get them Disco-wise! Yet
> another biased 5th gear test!
> Pete.
>

They couldn't do a proper comaprison - judging by the early 90's
Espace I once had the misfortune to hire it's very unlikely they
could have found one that old, and if they did the acceleration
to get it up to speed would have finished it off anyway!

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
hugh wrote:
> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an MPV?
>
> They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
> afford a Disco 3.
>
> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
> had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
>
To be fair the last time they did this sort of test they compared a
Fiesta and Freelander - the Freelander came off worst!
 
Any one relised yet that tax changes only affect new vehicles or have i
missed something on dvla website

Pete M wrote:
>> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
>> MPV?
>[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
>> afford a Disco 3.
>
>Probably because Renault love crashing things, they spend more on crash
>testing than anyone else. I'd not be surprised in the least if Renault said
>"Here, have an Espace, just give us the test results and the remains back",
>whereas Ch5 would have had to pay for the old £1500 Disco.
>
>They neglected to mention that they were crashing a 2004 design into a
>1960's design chassis.
>
>> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the
>> disco had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
>
>Suits me fine anyway, I've been buying cheap Range Rovers all over the shop
>in the last few weeks because of the "4x4 Tax" panic. I doubt they'll ever
>be this cheap again..
>

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/land-rover/200604/1
 
Didn't see it myself - did they crash them head on into each other or into a
concrete block???


"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
> MPV?
>
> They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
> afford a Disco 3.
>
> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
> had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
>
> --
> hugh
> Reply to address is valid at the time of posting


 
In <5ef9c82a5690b@uwe> jason-h via CarKB.com wrote:
> Any one relised yet that tax changes only affect new vehicles or have
> i missed something on dvla website
>
> Pete M wrote:
>>> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
>>> MPV?
>>[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
>>> afford a Disco 3.
>>
>>Probably because Renault love crashing things, they spend more on
>>crash testing than anyone else. I'd not be surprised in the least if
>>Renault said "Here, have an Espace, just give us the test results and
>>the remains back", whereas Ch5 would have had to pay for the old
>>£1500 Disco. They neglected to mention that they were crashing a 2004
>>design into a 1960's design chassis.
>>> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the
>>> disco had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
>>
>>Suits me fine anyway, I've been buying cheap Range Rovers all over the
>>shop in the last few weeks because of the "4x4 Tax" panic. I doubt
>>they'll ever be this cheap again..
>
Watched this show.
How none of these program never high light how too
avoid crashes or prepare just seems how to contend with head ons.
john
 
Ok - just been to their website
http://fifthgear.five.tv/jsp/5gmain.jsp?lnk=601&featureid=301&pageid=561

Looking at the photo the Espace clearly hits the Discovery more into it's
front wing/door area. The strongest part of the espace hitting a weaker area
on the Discovery.

If it had been a proper head on or the Disco had been in the same position
as the Espace the results would have been very different - they deliberately
avoided a head on impact with the disco's chassis rails by the look of it.

Look at the 2 photos and you will see what I mean. Discovery was hit right
at the headlight and the front of the Espace then slews into the driver's
wing/door.

"Vince" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Didn't see it myself - did they crash them head on into each other or into
a
> concrete block???
>
>
> "hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an
> > MPV?
> >
> > They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> > used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> > design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't
> > afford a Disco 3.
> >
> > Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
> > had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
> >
> > --
> > hugh
> > Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
>
>


 

"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an MPV?
>
> They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't afford
> a Disco 3.
>
> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
> had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
>
> --
> hugh
> Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

It occurs to me that a possible up-side of this sort of biased reporting is
that
there could be a shift away from buying 4x4s for school run use. This might
reduce the number of "Chelsea tractors" and leave the anti's with less
ammunition with which to bash true enthusiasts. Well, there's always hope!


 
I totally agree, they deliberately chose a type of accident that
avoided the Disco's chassis coming into play. In the actual programme
they pointed out that the Land Rover's "stiff chassis" was virtually
undistorted! A direct head-on crash would have given very different
results, but that's not what they wanted to show on TV and Renault
probably wouldn't have given them a brand new Espace if it didn't help
sell them...

 
"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Did anyone see the simulated crash to see if a 4x4 was safer than an MPV?
>
> They went to an awful lot of expense to set this up - except that they
> used and "old" 4x4 (Disco 1) against a new Espace with all the latest
> design features. Presumably they had run out of budget and couldn't afford
> a Disco 3.
>
> Needless to say the dummies in the Espace came off best - but the disco
> had the last laugh - the air bags failed.
>
> --
> hugh
> Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

I'm also not convinced by their "bigger" isn't always better. Is a
Discovery really that much bigger?
Discovery Espace
Length 4524mm 4656mm
Width 1793mm 2104mm
Height 1928mm 1728mm
Wheelbase 2540mm 2803mm
Weight 1865kg 1665kg

So it's taller and weighs a bit more. But 2 out of 5 dimensions being
greater means it's a bigger vehicle?


Phil


 
Piers wrote:
> I totally agree, they deliberately chose a type of accident that
> avoided the Disco's chassis coming into play. In the actual programme
> they pointed out that the Land Rover's "stiff chassis" was virtually
> undistorted! A direct head-on crash would have given very different
> results, but that's not what they wanted to show on TV and Renault
> probably wouldn't have given them a brand new Espace if it didn't help
> sell them...

It is widely known that 4x4's do not actually perform particularly
well in crashes because they have a solid (and very stiff) chassis.
Don't know why anyone here is complaining. I didn't see the feature
as particularly biased, they even said that they didn't know what
the outcome would be because no-one had actually done this type of
test before. Maybe if they had crashed an Espace into a DIII it
would have been different, but you can't get a DIII for anywhere
near the money of an Espace and they were trying to compare two
similarly priced 'family' vehicles - their reasoning was valid.
If they put a Metro up against the Disco it wouldn't exactly have
been fair would it?! (although I agree that 10k for a D1 is a bit
OTT, but even a DII would have had the same result being all but
identical in the chassis department)

The reason they did a 40% head-on collision is because that is what
most accidents are like - it is pretty rare for cars to meet exactly
100% head-on - people usually make some sort of effort to avoid an
oncoming car instead of running straight into it! LOL Even driving
a Disco I somehow doubt that you would deliberately aim for a 100%
head-on collision if you were in that situation because you thought
that you would come off better when you hit the other vehicle!! :)

What I found scary is that it was only 40MPH and that was the result,
I mean, I travel around town at that sort of speed all day, it has
certainly slowed me down!

Of course (despite being a big LR fan) I may be slightly biased
the other way, already owning an Espace for ferrying the family
around in! :)

Matt
 
Matthew Maddock wrote:
> Piers wrote:
>
>> I totally agree, they deliberately chose a type of accident that
>> avoided the Disco's chassis coming into play. In the actual programme
>> they pointed out that the Land Rover's "stiff chassis" was virtually
>> undistorted! A direct head-on crash would have given very different
>> results, but that's not what they wanted to show on TV and Renault
>> probably wouldn't have given them a brand new Espace if it didn't help
>> sell them...
>
>
> It is widely known that 4x4's do not actually perform particularly
> well in crashes because they have a solid (and very stiff) chassis.
> Don't know why anyone here is complaining. I didn't see the feature
> as particularly biased, they even said that they didn't know what
> the outcome would be because no-one had actually done this type of
> test before. Maybe if they had crashed an Espace into a DIII it
> would have been different, but you can't get a DIII for anywhere
> near the money of an Espace and they were trying to compare two
> similarly priced 'family' vehicles - their reasoning was valid.
> If they put a Metro up against the Disco it wouldn't exactly have
> been fair would it?! (although I agree that 10k for a D1 is a bit
> OTT, but even a DII would have had the same result being all but
> identical in the chassis department)
>
> The reason they did a 40% head-on collision is because that is what
> most accidents are like - it is pretty rare for cars to meet exactly
> 100% head-on - people usually make some sort of effort to avoid an
> oncoming car instead of running straight into it! LOL Even driving
> a Disco I somehow doubt that you would deliberately aim for a 100%
> head-on collision if you were in that situation because you thought
> that you would come off better when you hit the other vehicle!! :)
>
> What I found scary is that it was only 40MPH and that was the result,
> I mean, I travel around town at that sort of speed all day, it has
> certainly slowed me down!
>
> Of course (despite being a big LR fan) I may be slightly biased
> the other way, already owning an Espace for ferrying the family
> around in! :)
>
> Matt

All I can say is that having been cut from the wreckage of a Ford
Escort, I wouldn't trust anything between a motorbike and a Land-Rover
with my or my families lives. Motorbikes can accelerate out of danger
(on the whole - or lie down under an artic, as a mate of mine once did),
and a Land-Rover - well, we know the advantages!

I will add thought that being a biker certainly makes me more aware of
the dangers of tossing 2 toms of metal around the road, and so perhaps I
give that little extra leeway to other road users than your usual
"school run jockey".

Stuart
 
> All I can say is that having been cut from the wreckage of a Ford
> Escort, I wouldn't trust anything between a motorbike and a Land-Rover
> with my or my families lives.

Which is why I wouldn't put my family in an Escort either! I bought the
Espace knowing that it had a good track record on safety, although I
have to admit I didn't expect it to stand up quite so well to a
collision with something as heavy as a Disco.

> Motorbikes can accelerate out of danger

or into it :)

> I will add thought that being a biker certainly makes me more aware of
> the dangers of tossing 2 toms of metal around the road, and so perhaps I
> give that little extra leeway to other road users than your usual
> "school run jockey".

As a biker (although sadly now ex-biker) I have to agree that riding a
bike makes you much more road-aware. Should be compulsory for everyone
to spend time on the road on a bike!

Matt.
 
On 2006-05-04, Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> wrote:

> As a biker (although sadly now ex-biker) I have to agree that riding a
> bike makes you much more road-aware. Should be compulsory for everyone
> to spend time on the road on a bike!

Still too dangerous, both from your own lack of care and those of
other drivers. 60% of non-fatal accidents involving a car are down to
the car driver, but 70% of biker deaths are down to the biker, 30% of
them are single-vehicle deaths, i.e. no other vehicle involved.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_035439.pdf

(page 28)

Riding around in a large truck with no crash protection, a paper-thin
door, and dreadful handling has made me more road aware though ;-) So
being in more danger makes some more aware but not all it seems.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
> Still too dangerous, both from your own lack of care and those of
> other drivers. 60% of non-fatal accidents involving a car are down to
> the car driver, but 70% of biker deaths are down to the biker, 30% of
> them are single-vehicle deaths, i.e. no other vehicle involved.
>
> http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_035439.pdf

Exactly why I am an EX-biker!! (although more to do with SHMBO
dictating that I am NOT having another bike, than my own decision!)

Matt
 
Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Still too dangerous, both from your own lack of care and those of
>> other drivers. 60% of non-fatal accidents involving a car are down to
>> the car driver, but 70% of biker deaths are down to the biker, 30% of
>> them are single-vehicle deaths, i.e. no other vehicle involved.
>
> Exactly why I am an EX-biker!! (although more to do with SHMBO
> dictating that I am NOT having another bike, than my own decision!)

Humm...
After years of track racing I had a 'big one' and SWMBO called in the
promise that when she really-really wanted me to stop I would. Over the
next few years I had two superbikes written off underneath me. The first
guy said "Didn't see ya mate" but made the mistake of saying it when the policeman was listening so that was DC+A (he turned right
across my line)
and the second one was DinC so another nice simple insurance claim but
I was still the guy flying down the road on my head.

Frankly driving on the road was frightening in a way that closing on
Armco at 140+ never was. It least I've seen guys in my class put their
pride and joy sideways into gravel rather than hit a downed rider.

Maybe that's why I got the Rangie. Cut that up in a white van and
you'll know about it. However I daren't by MCN. I don't want to know
what's good in the current crop of bikes.

nigelH



*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
 
On 2006-05-04, Nigel Hewitt <[email protected]> wrote:

> Frankly driving on the road was frightening in a way that closing on
> Armco at 140+ never was. It least I've seen guys in my class put
> their pride and joy sideways into gravel rather than hit a downed
> rider.

Personally I'd love a bike, but having seen what a 30MPH accident can
do to someone when they whack their head on a stone bridge I'd rather
give it a miss, on the roads at least.

I have thought about getting either an old classic BSA or similar to
take to rallies, or a superbike to take to race tracks, but driving
one on the public road is another matter. After all, for most of us
whether car or bike, if we're going to die an early, violent death,
it'll be on a public road while travelling to something mundane rather
than death by terrorist attacks, murder, mutant baboons etc.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On or around Thu, 04 May 2006 09:27:27 +0100, Matthew Maddock
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Which is why I wouldn't put my family in an Escort either! I bought the
>Espace knowing that it had a good track record on safety, although I
>have to admit I didn't expect it to stand up quite so well to a
>collision with something as heavy as a Disco.

I daresay it'd protect you reasonably in a head-on with a disco. Might not
do the espace much good though :)

>or into it :)
>

BTDT...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt"
(confound the men who have made our remarks before us.)
Aelius Donatus (4th Cent.) [St. Jerome, Commentary on Ecclesiastes]
 
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