Series 3 Electric Power Steering

My question would have been what would the insurance make of this mod?

rob1miles said:

I'm not against power steering on a series nor doing that electrically, but my day job often involves looking at engineering changes that have gone wrong becuase the modifications undermined some of the orginal design intentions. This makes me predisposed to look for that type of issue. I think I can see a bit of it here and so to my mind a system like the Heystee looks like it stays closer to the original intentions, i think that could hold true of the P38 box too as it comes from the same design team and is intended for a similar application. The Corsa column is intended for a different usage and so I would want to see more analysis, it clearly works well on kit cars as there are a lot using it but I would be uncomfortable with it on a fully laden LWB and trailer, not becuase it could fail, but because without type approval (a UK exemption I fully support) I could be left explaining why it was safe after an accident, even if it wasn't the cause.

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You may have to stand up and say ‘I don’t know’. What a terrible prospect

Not feeling much love for this proposed modification, if you have some expertise in vehicle modifications that may undermine some of the original design intentions give me a steer in the right direction.

As to what the insurance company may make of this mod, the same as they make of all mods I guess. I cant see how this mod is fundamentally different from a P38 or Heystee system, none of them are in any way original. The P38 requires home welding and column mods, and the Heystee system dosnt claim to have any endorsements from Land Rover or any references to any other particular manufacturing or safety standards. It does however claim to put out a force of up to 15000 N, not sure Land Rover designed the steering to expect that sort of input from a hydraulic ram.

I dont think that insurance companies have a couple of people that informally meet over a cup of tea to discuss the engineering merits of non standard power steering installations, I cant imaging one of them saying, "look, this system was fitted to another vehicle which shares a passing similarity to a Series and while the welding isn't exactly up to factory specs and the angle the UJ's are going though is a little extreme lets give this guy the benefit of the doubt and recommend his claim is honored". Its either standard or modified as far as insurance is concerned. This mod will be declared to my insurance company, then we will see what if any documentation or proofs I will need to provide.

There's standard...modified...and bodged...

In my experience, despite any original good intentions, modifications usually include a bit of bodged somewhere along the line. When they built the series landrovers, the standard included bodged.

Col

Colthebrummie said:

In my experience, despite any original good intentions, modifications usually include a bit of bodged somewhere along the line. When they built the series landrovers, the standard included bodged.

Col

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Not on the running gear that was engineered not bodged.Picking bits of other vehicles and welding together to make crucial safety components is bodging imo if you don't have an engineering qualification how can you know the tolerances are correct.

I dont want to jump on any negative wagons..but the only car sized electric PAS that I have experience of was the GM one in the OP, as fitted to the vauxhall Meriva. And it gave a lot of trouble.

Admittedly, this was in the first year that it was supplied in the said car, so it may have been teething troubles. I hope so! The fact that it went on to be fitted to other GM vehicles would suggest that to be the case.

Interesting concept, although the safety and insurance concerns are valid. I am told that HGVs in the 4th Reich have used electric PAS for quite a while.

Colthebrummie said:

In my experience, despite any original good intentions, modifications usually include a bit of bodged somewhere along the line. When they built the series landrovers, the standard included bodged.

Col

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You could say that of every custom car and kit car ever made.... including even changing an air filter for improved performance!!

Dont even know if it will fit in the space available so did a crude model to have a quick look.



If I rotate it as above there should be enough room for the motor and gearbox. Next problem is getting the torque generated into the bulkhead, pics below give you some idea of what I'm thinking of doing.



The idea is to have a torque tube with a large plate to spread the load where the column goes through the bulkhead and a further pedestal that bolts into the footwell with a plate inside (not shown) that feeds the loads into the pedal boxes. The Corsa EPAS has a double D 19mm output shaft, I will use a couple of steering UJs coupled by a suitable shaft with double D ends. The Land Rover shaft will be cut to a suitable length and D flats machined in to join with the UJ. This should get around any alignment issues. A suitable bearing will also be added to the shaft from the steering box. Also got hold of an old steering box to play with today.

Next task will be a wooden replica of the bulkhead so I can start making up the steel work and checking clearances.

That's useful even more so, if you had more of the drawing, like the chassis, and battery tray oil filter...... and measurements, but its a good start
And it will be a first for showing how its done!!

Looks good can I be your insurance broker please.

Sure.... can I make a claim now please? let me introduce you to my lawyer.... Livia Skint

Dopey said:

Sure.... can I make a claim now please? let me introduce you to my lawyer.... Livia Skint

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No problem sir send me your qualified engineers certificate,EU type approval of modified parts manufactured for your vehicle and I wouldn't bother with your lawyer we'll settle in court.

My EU69 covers that... are you messing with my human rights?

If you go ahead do some searches to check that other's have not had probems, or if they have, show you have considerd and adressed these. Do some basic calcs, load over area, torques and any welded brakets. Follow recognised good parctice; reinforce or add anti-crush plates or tubes and try to take the loads to strong points. Keep a written diary of why you did things in a bound note book with numbered pages and cross out, not erase, mistakes. Record where you get components and grades (ie of bolts). This would be recognised as taking reasonble care and recordkeeping and it would be legally acceptable as evidence, that's why you use bound numbered pages, so it can't be tampered with. You are allowed to build your own aircraft so long as you follow sound engineering and record what you do and why, and maintain traceablity. I doubt anyone would ever ask for it and in my expreince insurers no longer employ enough engineers to know what it means but if you do find yourslef haveing to account for your work it could save a huge amount of hassle and money.

Hmmmm.

good advice.

It would be great for future conversions, to document and know exactly what is involved and what to do, I really want to do this, but I would be doing it blind, and dont have the confidence to "wing" my way through it, I want to do it, and this will give everyone the confidence to do it right

Not had much time to get on with this lately.

First job was to strip the spare steering box I brought and try and figure out now to fit a UJ to it. The visible part of the column suggested that there would be plenty of scope for turning the shaft down to 19mm and machining on a few flats on to match the Corsa UJ's, unfortunately when I striped the column down I found out the shaft is wasted down to about 18mm and then welded to the worm. The picture shows the weld area and how poorly aligned the shaft is the the worm, I measured a run out of over 1mm.




Hopefully there should be enough material to turn it down to 16mm and cut on a 36 tooth spline to take a standard UJ. Unfortunately the condition of this box didn't quite live up to its description, both the worn and nut have a huge amount of wear on them so anything I do to this will have to be repeated on a serviceable box.

In the mean time a wooden mock up of the bulkhead has been made allowing me to have a quick play with the layout.

I like the way you are doing that.