P38A E85 (85% bioethanol)

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nigelbb

Well-Known Member
Posts
131
I hadn't visited the forum for a while but see that there are a couple of French residents posting so thought it might be interesting to discuss E85 (85% bioethanol) which is widely available in France & currently costs about 90c/L versus almost €2/L for E10. There are boxes available for €200-€800 that you can fit to your car to enable you to use E85 but I have been running my unmodified 2001 Vogue on 100% E85 for several months now after I saw some guys posting on one of the French language Range Rover forums that both Thor & GEMS are perfectly happy on 100% E85. I did start off with 25% then 50% then 75% before I was confident enough to run on 100% E85.
Performance is unaffected the one slight issue is that you need to crank the motor for longer when starting from cold. This is a known issue for all cars using E85 & is only noticeable because normally the P38 starts with only a slight touch from the starter motor. I replaced the fiver year old Halfords battery with a Hankook MF31-1000 about a month ago so doubt that starting is ever going to be a problem.
The other issue is that bioethanol like LPG is less energy dense than regular petrol so fuel consumption is increased. I see around 14-15mpg versus 16-17mpg but given the massive price difference it's the cost equivalent of getting 31mpg out of E10.
 
nigelbb said:
I hadn't visited the forum for a while but see that there are a couple of French residents posting so thought it might be interesting to discuss E85 (85% bioethanol) which is widely available in France & currently costs about 90c/L versus almost €2/L for E10. There are boxes available for €200-€800 that you can fit to your car to enable you to use E85 but I have been running my unmodified 2001 Vogue on 100% E85 for several months now after I saw some guys posting on one of the French language Range Rover forums that both Thor & GEMS are perfectly happy on 100% E85. I did start off with 25% then 50% then 75% before I was confident enough to run on 100% E85.
Performance is unaffected the one slight issue is that you need to crank the motor for longer when starting from cold. This is a known issue for all cars using E85 & is only noticeable because normally the P38 starts with only a slight touch from the starter motor. I replaced the fiver year old Halfords battery with a Hankook MF31-1000 about a month ago so doubt that starting is ever going to be a problem.
The other issue is that bioethanol like LPG is less energy dense than regular petrol so fuel consumption is increased. I see around 14-15mpg versus 16-17mpg but given the massive price difference it's the cost equivalent of getting 31mpg out of E10.
Click to expand...
Never seen it, but then I'm not likely to look as mine are diesels.
 
tomcat59alan said:
But,but it Must be greener cause it says bio.:rolleyes:;):D
Click to expand...
Unfortunately bio is a carbon positive process by almost 30%, which means it takes 30% more energy to make it, than burning it produces.
Ethanol is also very corrosive for a fuel system not designed for it, so basically anything pre 2012 is at risk from ethanol damage.
 
Nodge68 said:
Unfortunately bio is a carbon positive process by almost 30%, which means it takes 30% more energy to make it, than burning it produces.
Ethanol is also very corrosive for a fuel system not designed for it, so basically anything pre 2012 is at risk from ethanol damage.
Click to expand...
Back in my misspent youth, Cleveland Discol contained Ethanol, 8% if I remember correctly, it was a better anti knock agent that Tetra Ethyl Lead. It caused no problem in our cars or motorbikes. We also used to run competition bikes on Methanol, it was a long time ago but I seem to remember that the ignition timing had to be changed.
 
Datatek said:
Back in my misspent youth, Cleveland Discol contained Ethanol, 8% if I remember correctly, it was a better anti knock agent that Tetra Ethyl Lead.
Click to expand...

That's correct, there no detectable side effects with going up to a 10% concentration of ethanol in petrol.
E85 however is a different kettle of fish altogether.
It's worse for the environment than burning petrol, and is extremely corrosive to a fuel system not designed for it.
 
Nodge68 said:
That's correct, there no detectable side effects with going up to a 10% concentration of ethanol in petrol.
E85 however is a different kettle of fish altogether.
It's worse for the environment than burning petrol, and is extremely corrosive to a fuel system not designed for it.
Click to expand...
Most of the so called environmental measures are actually making things worse and that includes battery cars:rolleyes:
 
nigelbb said:
I hadn't visited the forum for a while but see that there are a couple of French residents posting so thought it might be interesting to discuss E85 (85% bioethanol) which is widely available in France & currently costs about 90c/L versus almost €2/L for E10. There are boxes available for €200-€800 that you can fit to your car to enable you to use E85 but I have been running my unmodified 2001 Vogue on 100% E85 for several months now after I saw some guys posting on one of the French language Range Rover forums that both Thor & GEMS are perfectly happy on 100% E85. I did start off with 25% then 50% then 75% before I was confident enough to run on 100% E85.
Performance is unaffected the one slight issue is that you need to crank the motor for longer when starting from cold. This is a known issue for all cars using E85 & is only noticeable because normally the P38 starts with only a slight touch from the starter motor. I replaced the fiver year old Halfords battery with a Hankook MF31-1000 about a month ago so doubt that starting is ever going to be a problem.
The other issue is that bioethanol like LPG is less energy dense than regular petrol so fuel consumption is increased. I see around 14-15mpg versus 16-17mpg but given the massive price difference it's the cost equivalent of getting 31mpg out of E10.
Click to expand...
Guessing it is cheap in France due to government subsidy for growing crops for biofuels.
It is mostly about energy security, but it is not very secure, or very green, due to the large amounts of fossil fuels used to grow and harvest the maize that is used to make the fuel.
 
Nodge68 said:
Unfortunately bio is a carbon positive process by almost 30%, which means it takes 30% more energy to make it, than burning it produces.
Ethanol is also very corrosive for a fuel system not designed for it, so basically anything pre 2012 is at risk from ethanol damage.
Click to expand...
Do you have some actual evidence that E85 is corrosive to the P38 fuel system or is this just your opinion? I have seen posts on the French language Range Rover forum from guys who have done 20,000km with no ill effects.
 
Last edited:
nigelbb said:
Do you have some actual evidence that E85 is corrosive to the P38 fuel system or is this just your opinion? I have seen posts on the French language Range Rover forum from guys who have done 20,000km with no ill effects.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't personally in the v8 rover engine, we have in a Citroën xsara 1.6i from 2000 and only on 50/50.
A neighbor ran a peugeot with the same engine and it blew the head gasket. So it could be engine condition related also. As for the v8 with a high rate of gasket and liner failure rate. It's not something I would do personally but your experience will be a positive for info on this subject. As for extra water content, it is stated but I've no experience on that side as the car we ran had gearbox failure... Al4/dpo crap...
 
Nodge68 said:
First part of that statement is correct. The second part has been proven to be inaccurate. ;)
Click to expand...
Proven by who? Much electricity is generated world wide by external combustion, very inefficient. Add in line losses, transformer losses, rectification losses for battery charging and invertor losses for the motor drive in the car plus the weight of the car and you will find I think that BEV's are less fuel efficient than a modern diesel. They do of course move pollution out of town. Then you have battery life and recycling of Lithium & Cobalt to take into account
 
Datatek said:
Proven by who? Much electricity is generated world wide by external combustion, very inefficient. Add in line losses, transformer losses, rectification losses for battery charging and invertor losses for the motor drive in the car plus the weight of the car and you will find I think that BEV's are less fuel efficient than a modern diesel. They do of course move pollution out of town. Then you have battery life and recycling of Lithium & Cobalt to take into account
Click to expand...
Unfortunately it is indeed a case of trading one form of pollution for another.. I tell you... Horses and carts.
 
Nodge68 said:
Unfortunately bio is a carbon positive process by almost 30%, which means it takes 30% more energy to make it, than burning it produces.
Ethanol is also very corrosive for a fuel system not designed for it, so basically anything pre 2012 is at risk from ethanol damage.
Click to expand...

Also, given the amount of sunflower oil made in Ukraine and Russia, not to mention grain, they should be growing food and not plants to shove in yer tank!
 
Datatek said:
Back in my misspent youth, Cleveland Discol contained Ethanol, 8% if I remember correctly, it was a better anti knock agent that Tetra Ethyl Lead. It caused no problem in our cars or motorbikes. We also used to run competition bikes on Methanol, it was a long time ago but I seem to remember that the ignition timing had to be changed.
Click to expand...

Ethanol has a slower burn so arguably you could retard the ignition slightly. Most modern cars probably sort themselves out anyway. Fuel is pretty variable worldwide.
 
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