Does copper slip affect required torque?

I intend to copper slip the wheel lug bolt threads on my disco.
I believe this will ease their removal/refitting (?)

But will this affect the required torque for when I do them up?

where's that cano worms emote gone

yes
Yes. Torque values listed in shop manuals are almost always meant to be used with clean, dry threads. At Bendix, they recommend against using lubricants on lug nut threads, as do many vehicle manufacturers. They have two reasons:

1.Each lubricant may have a different effect on torque values
2.Heat may cause all but special-purpose lubricants designed for brake applications to melt and run, possibly contaminating pads or shoes and/or rotors or drums.
If you insist on lubricating lug threads, please be sparing and make sure to compensate for the increased torque likely to result. For example, one lubricant manufacturer recommends torquing nuts to only 85 percent of the factory specification when using their nickel-based anti-seize compound on threads.

All values given are for clean dry threads. Grease, whether it contains copper or not,
SERIOUSLY affects the holding properties of screwed fasteners. In some cases, light oiling is recommended.

aint :googleit: wunderfool?

back in the real world, it won't have any affect - just do em up as normal

has worked for me for the past 25+ years

Squeeze me, Sean - he asked "will this affect the required torque for when I do them up?" and the answer is "yes", for the given reasons - you are answering a different Q - "will this have any adverse affect" to which the answer is "most likely-not".

Definately a can of worms. No you shouldn't use it on wheel nuts. I do personally though and have never had a problem myself.

I spose it'll all boil down to personal choice.

Although it is acceptable to lube the threads lightly if only to prevent corrosion the tapered faces that clamp to the wheel should never be lubricated. It is preferable to have to work a little to undo the nut as opposed to them falling off due to vibration.

I would use the book torque even with lubed threads. It is a rather complex bit of maths but the torque applied translates to a tension on the bolt/stud which is what you are actually trying to achieve. The only time this varies is when using self locking nuts which is not applicable in this case.

Thats funny - i thought it was down to the friction between the stud, the nut and the wheel.

TaDa said:

I intend to copper slip the wheel lug bolt threads on my disco.
I believe this will ease their removal/refitting (?)

But will this affect the required torque for when I do them up?

Click to expand...

Copaslip tends to dry out and gives you the same effect as painting a hub
, it flakes off leaving a loose wheel, same with studs if it gets onto the taper or locating stub then the nuts can come loose.

Its great for stuff but I dont use it for that, a little light oil making sure the nuts run up free then wipe off the surplus.

Now we are going to get really boring but...

Standard torques are based on the threads being lubricated anyway, the following site gives an example set of figures Conversion and Torque Specs Chart but it varies according to the bolt material. A thread is a helix a.k.a. a ramp so a force pushing up the ramp results in a force through the ramp. If the thread is clean and in good condition the friction is at a minimum which is why you should always test a nut on the thread before final assembly (no I don't always either but we are in to anorak territry here) In pure engineering terms the designer will 1st define what clamping load is needed to hold an assembly together and specify the number, material and size of bolts to achieve that load in his design (am I being sexist here). This then specifies what tension is required on the bolts which then translates into a minimum torque. Of course gaskets, jointing compound, temperature etc screw this all up and makes it really mindblowing. If the torque is too low so provide insufficient friction to prevent release in use then he should include a locking device.

Finally apologies to TaDa for hijacking his thread (no pun intended) but I stand by my original point. Light lube on the threads to prevent water ingress and corrosion, none on the taper seats and torque to book value!

Wow! I'm going to start wearing a helmet when posting here
(I seem to hit the flame war button each time despite doing some searching on the forums before I posting - honest!)

I like all the answers (for my original question and variants thereon)

I'll probably apply a little (to the threads only) with the possibly misguided thought that it actually makes a difference for the better.

Thanks everyone

I'm a coppa-slip advocate,

& Mech eng whose had to work out all the variouse permutations of fastening sizes, diameters, thread pitces etc for variouse applications, which in the 'real world' get chucked out the window, 'cos when you have done all that maths, factoring in your margins of safety etc, you come down to the catalogues of standard fittings, and find the closest match! So you just go to them first!

& Wheel nuts aren't a 'critical' fastening, and it's anticipated that most of the time if anything, they are going to be over tightened, cos they are a BIG bolt, most often done up by numpty Tyre fitters with a windy gun with the torque setting wacked to the max, which is why we have to use a ruddy scaffold bar on the wheel brace to get the darn things off again!

So, applying some common sense.......

The factory give us a bit of bendy wire with a socket welded on the end to do/undo these things, NOT a calibrated torque wrench.......

So the actual torque setting its not THAT critical, NOR is it all that high.... by my reckoning a ten year old or wimpy woman should be able to do/undo wheel nuts with-out the aid of an extension bar, so a typical chap giving it a 'bit of beef', should be plenty tight enough.

Now, after windy gun wielding tyre fitters, other reason wheel-nuts often dont come off when you need them to is rusted threads and / or flanges. Rust or corrosion being worse on alloy wheels against iron hubs, and with compound 'top-hat' or captive washer nuts.

So I ALWAYS advise that when you first get a car, going round taking the wheels off in turn, (with tommy-bar & socket if needed!), cleaning the hub, the wheel-nut & stud, threads, and re-assembling everything with coppa-slip.

A good smear on the hub flange, a light smear on the studs, and if top-hat and or captive nuts (Both in the case of Rangie / Disco alloy-wheel nuts) a light smear on the rim of the top-hat, and the washer.

Then re-assembling using the car-kept tool so as not to over tighten the nuts and have some confidence if you get a flat on some wet cold dark road in the middle of nowhere, that wheel will come off without having to call the AA or having to find a scaffold pole.

I then advise that whenever a tyre gets changed, when you go into Thick-**** or wherever, you ask them nicely NOT to wack the nuts up with the windy-gun, but do them up to a tightness you might be able to get undone with the standard wheel-brace, either by using thier sockets and a breaker-bar, or the actual wheel-brace in the car!

Or waiting till you get it home, and re-doing it.

YES wheel-nuts can work loose under vibration. YES rust crud etc in the threads can effect how much of the force you put on them to do them up actually holds the wheel on, and how easily they can work loose.

MAKE SURE THE FASTENINGS ARE CLEAN

And as the manual suggests, check that they stay tight, periodically, going round them all with the wheel-brace.

You are supposed to check your tyres for pressure, tread and damage at frequent intervals, no great hassle to check wheel-nuts at the same time.....

Except that most dont bother to check tyres until the MOT man moans! But that is no excuse, and over-tightening wheel nuts JUST so you can be lazy about routine maintenence and checks is just that, LAZY, as well, as counter productive!

Over-tight wheel nuts are just as bad, if not WORSE then loose ones.

Yes wheel nuts can come loose from vibration, but over tightening a wheel nut will stress the stud. Do it too many times and the metal will stop stretching and start yeilding, (or the thread lands will) and then vibration will see it snap.

Personally I'd rather have a nut I can easily replace (or do up when I spot it early, doing my tyre checks!) than a stud, I'll probably have to take the whole hub off to drill out (if only one goes and I dont loose the whole wheel, and or worse!).....

So in short, I have no idea what the 'compensation factor' for using coppa-slip on your wheel nuts might be from the books, I'm an engineer, we apply common sense, so, just do them up 'tight' with the tool for the job, then give it a bit of extra grunt to be sure, and check them when you do the tyre pressures!

well said that man.^^^^^^^^^^^

I use copper slip because I like things to come apart again when required without a struggle. Whatever happened to just doing the nuts up tight and then stopping and checking them again after 20 or so miles? Common sense, innit?

right so now that Jackanory has finished the answer is "yes but it won't have any affect - just do em up as normal" ?

does any really use a torque wrench to do their wheels nuts up ?

Sean said:

right so now that Jackanory has finished the answer is "yes but it won't have any affect - just do em up as normal" ?

does any really use a torque wrench to do their wheels nuts up ?

Click to expand...

I remember the days when a torque wrench was for headgaskets and big ends .

I do lotsa talk on me wench to have the lug nuts tight

Sean said:

right so now that Jackanory has finished the answer is "yes but it won't have any affect - just do em up as normal" ?

does any really use a torque wrench to do their wheels nuts up ?

Click to expand...

Only on trucks, years of romping things up gives you that ability to tell I guess just like yourself. Most stuff gets fooked up with an air gun. Even with a torque wrench some of drivers in the daily checks and mechanics unfortunatly like to give em that little bit more after the click or hear them crack.

Most of us can use the copaslip safely, but all it takes is somebody on here to ladel it on in the wrong place and its a disaster so all the points are a good thing

. I build just about everything up with a tad of it on, always have, but dont want to say that here because it might give the wrong impression and a wheel comes off. Some prefer to put nothing on studs and hubs then have a beach of a time getting the nuts of, taking the threads off in the bargain, and spending ages bashing the wheel coz its weldid to the hub.