Death wobble!?

Hello all!

This forum has been of much use to me for the past 2 years with my P38 and I thank all of you who are always willing to help others.
However, I can't get clear information on my current issue.
I a vibration just over 80 Km/h and it almost made me sh*t my pants this morning... I though the car was falling apart! Right after a highway soft right turn, everything started shaking like if a wheel or a major suspension component had broken. Stopped the car, went under it, couldn't see any reason for this. Got back in it, drove away for another 10 Km below 80 Km/h, all good.
I've searched already (for the last 3h) on the web and the usual forums, but opinions differ from person to person.
I must say, all this happened (and please don't crucify me for this because only now after reading a few threads I know their rubbish) after I fitted polybush from Britpart DC7107 yesterday.
I've sent the car now for wheel alignment and wheel balancing.
Both front tires are a bit worn out on the outside.
Now, some say, it's bearings, some say rods, some say bushes, some say viscous coupling... I'm lost. I'll have the car back from wheel alignment in 2h and can't wait to test it.
My concern is if, considering the violence of the shake, it wont just be a wheel alignment issue.
Any thoughts?

Hi Tilo

I have the same problem initiated by a bump on the motorway.

See my thread here http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/violent-shuddering-speed-283692.html

The car was fine up until recently and despite the wealth of knowledge on this and other boards there seems to be no definitive answer.

My LR specialist is also at a loss

Very tricky as I have never experienced anything like this before, please keep us informed if you find a solution

Ash

change anything on steering/suspension & it will need alignment without doubt

Funny thing is, I needed to change my radius bushes because the right arm bushes were completely gone. But the car had no vibrations while driving and was driving straight when taking the hands off the steering.
There was a humming noise between 80 and 100 kph and a slight vibration when turning at low speeds (10-20 kph) or when slowly hitting the brakes for a smooth stop, almost like if transmission mounts or something loose with the drivetrain.
Now the humming and the vibration at low speeds are gone and I got this "death wobble" instead...
Not so much an improvement!

From what i have read (and I have a very tiny wobble even in the mornings ) it can be the sum of a little wear in all parts of the suspension and steering.

Not much help, is it?

Again, from reading, the single biggest contributors are the swivel hub joints.

Possibly followed by worn steering box.

Hope this helps a bit.

A defective tyre will also cause the wobble.
You can start by checking the VCU as that is very easy.
Different brands of tyre can accentuate problems, with Nexen Rodians on mine, even a badly worn track rod did not show up in any form of steering wobble.

I can't honestly say it's coming from the front, I'm wondering if my rear axle is shifting on bumps at high speed and causing the two axles to fight each other shaking the whole car.

I re fitted the wheels and checked all the tyres for any aberrations as best I can and it happened to me yesterday on a run, it's so scary even now I am ready for it......

AP90 said:

I can't honestly say it's coming from the front, I'm wondering if my rear axle is shifting on bumps at high speed and causing the two axles to fight each other shaking the whole car.

I re fitted the wheels and checked all the tyres for any aberrations as best I can and it happened to me yesterday on a run, it's so scary even now I am ready for it......

Click to expand...

I know what you mean! Even though I'm prepared for it now, it scares the sh*t outta me!
Just got the Rover back from the wheel alignment, same same...
Above 80 kph, if anything disturbs the ride (hump, slope, leaned road) it shakes like a washing machine with bricks inside... (if you can picture this, go on youtube, it's really funny!)
I spoke with a guy here, who has workshop and works only with Land Rovers, and he told me to check the steering shock absorber. Now that I replaced all the bushings, it can happen that the whole suspension is tighter and the shock is simply not able to handle the stiffness.
So, that will be my next step.
As well, while the car was on the lift, I've looked at the work carried out for the bushes and found that the guys didn't replace any bushings in the rear axle and actually got a couple of them wrong and fitted some rubber discs (supplied with the DC7107 bush kit) on the front shock absorbers (lower and upper mount). I believe it should only be lower mount... Anyone who fitted these bush kit before to give an insight? Next week it's going back to the workshop to get the rear axle done and remove those from the front shock absorbers. Could this be contributing for it? Changing the geometry of the shock absorbers could cause this shaking?

Ah! And the tires were checked and balanced... All good there!

Again, I hesitate to reply, but all I read when I had this problem on an earlier P38 said that the steering damper isn't a significant factor in a shake as serious as this. The problem was I think caused by the bushes -- poly comfort? but I was able to cure it partially by tightening the steering box. But, it was never completely right.

Could you run through again exactly which bushes have been changed?

SpiggyTopes said:

From what i have read (and I have a very tiny wobble even in the mornings ) it can be the sum of a little wear in all parts of the suspension and steering.

Not much help, is it?

Again, from reading, the single biggest contributors are the swivel hub joints.

Possibly followed by worn steering box.

Hope this helps a bit.

Click to expand...

I agree, the swivel joints could be one of the causes. The front left bearing was replaced not long ago, because I though the humming noise was from the front left hub, not from the radius arms. It happened mainly when turning right on acceleration or on heavy load on the front left of the car. There's nothing more frustrating than to send something to repair confident on your knowledge and then find it didn't fix it!

SpiggyTopes said:

Again, I hesitate to reply, but all I read when I had this problem on an earlier P38 said that the steering damper isn't a significant factor in a shake as serious as this. The problem was I think caused by the bushes -- poly comfort? but I was able to cure it partially by tightening the steering box. But, it was never completely right.

Could you run through again exactly which bushes have been changed?

Click to expand...

Got the Britpart DC7107 bush kit and replaced:
- Front trailing arm bushes
- Anti-roll bar bushes
- Radius arm bushes
- Shock absorber lower and upper mount (replaced by mistake)

Wheel alignment and wheel balancing done after that.

Still to replace:
- Rear trailing arm bushes
- Rear radius arm bushes

****part strikes again? Only OEM bushes for me.

Datatek said:

****part strikes again? Only OEM bushes for me.

Click to expand...

Yep, I read about it but only after having mine installed!
If I can't fix this with anything else, for sure the bushes are the ones to blame.

Tilo said:

Yep, I read about it but only after having mine installed!
If I can't fix this with anything else, for sure the bushes are the ones to blame.

Click to expand...

I'm on the same Britpart bushes now for about 20.000km and have had no problems. With violent wobble like this you would basically need to loose a bushing completely before it got that bad, in which case you should be able to locate it quite easily. It sounds like something under your car is very loose, which has me thinking that something hasn't been done up properly, a vital part has snapped off, or you've got a blown bearing somewhere. The latter should be audible though.

To AP90 I would say that you're problem isn't the Death Wobble as it is quite distinctively felt through the steering wheel.

Death Wobble is often several factors coming into play at one time. Panhard bushes are a prime culprit as is swivel pin pre-load. Duff ball joints and bad steering boxes are right up there, as well.

If the car is out of alignment, it can really kick up the problem.

Henrik97 said:

I'm on the same Britpart bushes now for about 20.000km and have had no problems. With violent wobble like this you would basically need to loose a bushing completely before it got that bad, in which case you should be able to locate it quite easily. It sounds like something under your car is very loose, which has me thinking that something hasn't been done up properly, a vital part has snapped off, or you've got a blown bearing somewhere. The latter should be audible though.

Click to expand...

Can you describe where each part went where? Because I think the guys where I took the car in for replacement of the bushes got some of them wrongly fitted. Like the smaller rubber discs... They've fitted all four on the front shocks axle mounting. I'm not sure as well if the bushes for the radius arm to chassi are fitted properly. They fitted the big fat ones, but maybe some of the smaller discs supplied with the kit should go in there as well.
The panhard and the anti-roll bar are pretty much straight forward, no chance for mistakes there.

Thanks in advance!

West Slope Rover said:

To AP90 I would say that you're problem isn't the Death Wobble as it is quite distinctively felt through the steering wheel.

Death Wobble is often several factors coming into play at one time. Panhard bushes are a prime culprit as is swivel pin pre-load. Duff ball joints and bad steering boxes are right up there, as well.

If the car is out of alignment, it can really kick up the problem.

Click to expand...

In my case, the whole car shakes violently.
The car wasn't out of alignment before and I've done the wheel alignment after the bush replacement. So, I think I can exclude that possibility...
Swivel rods, ball joints and steering box... Can't say. What I can say is that after the bush replacement, the steering became more precise. A lot less play now than before. I've checked the drag link and even though I can easily twist it by hand, it doesn't feel that much loose...

West Slope Rover said:

To AP90 I would say that you're problem isn't the Death Wobble as it is quite distinctively felt through the steering wheel.

Death Wobble is often several factors coming into play at one time. Panhard bushes are a prime culprit as is swivel pin pre-load. Duff ball joints and bad steering boxes are right up there, as well.

If the car is out of alignment, it can really kick up the problem.

Click to expand...

Hi WSR

Yeah I get that, mine is as Tilo describes the washing machine on spin with the bricks in it!!

It's very nasty

And you're right nothing comes through the steering apart from juddering.

My swivel joints have been replaced all the drag links and joints are new as are the shocks and airsprings

My specialist assures me that the pan hard bushes are good but I haven't checked myself (apparently it's one of the first things they checked)

Alignment has also been checked by two different firms

With the help of everyone on here, I have been able to sort all the issues with this car but this is proving to be a major

Thanks of the suggestions

Ash

Think you had better get the car checked over by someone who knows what they are doing. Before you kill yourself, something is badly wrong somewhere. Maybe needs to go on an MOT ramp and see if the wobble plates show anything up. Sounds like you have a loose axle.

wammers said:

Think you had better get the car checked over by someone who knows what they are doing. Before you kill yourself, something is badly wrong somewhere. Maybe needs to go on an MOT ramp and see if the wobble plates show anything up. Sounds like you have a loose axle.

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Just past the MOT a couple of weeks ago, but I agree something is badly wrong I wish I knew what, my specialist has also checked it multiple times