Mr Noisy
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Turns out these could, or probably are Buick 300 heads!
Opinions?!
Opinions?!
Cylinder heads
- Thread starter Philip0603
- Start date
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jamesmartin
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hrc are casting numbers ,could cover a few heads
Mr Noisy
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1396midget
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I thought they only came in Cast Iron, might be wrong tho!
wot an interestin fred :clap2:
Mr Noisy
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Have looked about at eBay.com and general google and it seems that alloy versions are available, I think one of the speed pro series books talks about them aswell!
Giving me a headache, despite being interesting!
Main thing is I can't decide/don't know what's best!!!
Mr Noisy
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For instance, are ERC2016 heads worse than HRC2210?
The cheap option of course is to just file mine out to fit the EFi manifold but if the heads are bad then it's pointless!
The cheap option of course is to just file mine out to fit the EFi manifold but if the heads are bad then it's pointless!
Mr Noisy
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Oh ****ing hell, just been chatting to Matt Savage who has some 4.6 heads in Matlock and he says he's not sure if they fit 3.5 easily because the angle of the inlet manifold is different?!
Anyone heard of this or is it not correct??
Headache or what?!?!
Anyone heard of this or is it not correct??
Headache or what?!?!
jamesmartin
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never heard that ,thought they were all the sameOh ****ing hell, just been chatting to Matt Savage who has some 4.6 heads in Matlock and he says he's not sure if they fit 3.5 easily because the angle of the inlet manifold is different?!
Anyone heard of this or is it not correct??
Headache or what?!?!
1396midget
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same here. 4.0 and 4.6 have smaller combustion chambers to keep same CR with comp gasket, but engine dimensions are the same. MEZ bloke says it on his site, all inlet manifolds are interchangeable.
Mr Noisy
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Me too, guess the only way is to try it/measure etc.
James/MGBGTV8, please consider this for me:
ERC2016 as fitted to carb SD1 vs HRC2210 as fitted to SD1 Vitesse and EFi Land Rovers.
Is the HRC2210 head a better item than the earlier ERC??
This may help:
The V8 Owners Forum - :: View topic - Rover V8 Cylinder Head Numbers
I'm really stuck/confused as to what heads I want/need or what's should do with mine. Don't really want to take the heads off if I don't need to but after spending a lot on Megasquirt I really want to optimise the engine as best I can also!
James/MGBGTV8, please consider this for me:
ERC2016 as fitted to carb SD1 vs HRC2210 as fitted to SD1 Vitesse and EFi Land Rovers.
Is the HRC2210 head a better item than the earlier ERC??
This may help:
The V8 Owners Forum - :: View topic - Rover V8 Cylinder Head Numbers
I'm really stuck/confused as to what heads I want/need or what's should do with mine. Don't really want to take the heads off if I don't need to but after spending a lot on Megasquirt I really want to optimise the engine as best I can also!
Mr Noisy
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Right, sweet, so I COULD fit 4.6 heads using comp gaskets.
Might not be a bad option...
fett
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whats your budget mate?
all the trouble you went to not to take off the heads lol, you have re-built this motor after all lol
all the trouble you went to not to take off the heads lol, you have re-built this motor after all lol
Mr Noisy
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oh its a ****ing joke fett, turns out i have to strip the damn thing down again yet this time its gonna be in the bloody car
HOWEVER the point still stands that IF i can get reliable information that the ERC2016 heads are ok for my purpose then i will simply grind them in situ.
they do not have wasted stems like a vitesse head, but neither did my HRC2210 heads because they are pre 93, when the vitesse spec went across the range.
budget is as slim as ever but i will have to make it stretch if necessary. i'm looking at a few hundred pounds maximum, £300 really is pushing it.
i'm thinking that if i do need better heads then a set of cheap 4.6 heads would be a good idea, would get them tested and refurbed of course.
just stuck in a bit of a hole not knowing what to do
HOWEVER the point still stands that IF i can get reliable information that the ERC2016 heads are ok for my purpose then i will simply grind them in situ.
they do not have wasted stems like a vitesse head, but neither did my HRC2210 heads because they are pre 93, when the vitesse spec went across the range.
budget is as slim as ever but i will have to make it stretch if necessary. i'm looking at a few hundred pounds maximum, £300 really is pushing it.
i'm thinking that if i do need better heads then a set of cheap 4.6 heads would be a good idea, would get them tested and refurbed of course.
just stuck in a bit of a hole not knowing what to do
Mr Noisy
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MGBGTV8
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If you only want to spend £300 then you're not really going to get an awful lot of "bang for your buck" as it were. You're going to have to drop 50 quid of that on a gaskets for starters. (unless of course I've got the wrong end of the stick and you meant £300 per head in which case you'll get something pretty decent.)
On that basis, the best thing to do may well be to just modify what you have for now and put the bulk of your money in a pot towards a better pair of heads another day.
You've already said that you can feel the rebuilt engine is already kicking out more grunt than what was there before. Precisely tweaking the advance curve with your new ignition kit will make the power curve throughout the rev range more linear so there are improvements to be made there anyway.
On that basis, the best thing to do may well be to just modify what you have for now and put the bulk of your money in a pot towards a better pair of heads another day.
You've already said that you can feel the rebuilt engine is already kicking out more grunt than what was there before. Precisely tweaking the advance curve with your new ignition kit will make the power curve throughout the rev range more linear so there are improvements to be made there anyway.
Mr Noisy
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ok so i think i now FINALLY have the answer!
hopefully someone can try to confirm this for me, but:
Pre 76 Heads : rubbish, very poor, should be upgraded. High CR but poor flow.
76 - 87 : SD1 Heads, all carb spec heads, decent flow, enlarged valve size, standard valves and basic valve stem seals. reasonable heads. ERC0216. easily distinguishable by not having inlet cutouts or wasted stem valves.
84 - 94 : it gets very confusing. bear in mind there are still carb heads around until 87 anyway, plus land rover really mix it up:
the 190bhp SD1 Vitesse (also vanden plas) is released in 84 which has EFi as standard and therefore has the cutouts, but also has flowed back-cut valves with wasted stems. range rover heads produced for carb engines are still the same as basic SD1 heads however, but as range rovers start to receive flapper systems, they get injector cutouts but still basic valves. the same for EFi discos as of 91 onwards. production carried on this way for land rover right up to 94 where suffix A engines were probably no longer made, and D1 3.9s were most likely built from old stock.
NB. there are a number of cases during this period where old stock confuses the issue.
for instance the 4.2 engine uses a Vitesse spec head, but with an extra grind to take composite gaskets. the outer 4 bolt holes in the head were still there but blocked up. the 3.9 disco engine was likely a vitesse head but without the grind to take tin gaskets and 14 bolts. all these variations take HRC2210, the only way to check whats what is to look at the cutout and/or to see if it has wasted stems, which basically means it will flow as well as a 4.6 head.
94 onwards : 10 bolt heads are produced, whole new casting. same valves as vitesse spec heads, uprated springs but minimal difference. much better valve stem seals than ever before. some say these had larger ports than 2210 heads, other say there was more material so more porting was possible. ALL 4.6 heads have wasted valve stems, the best stem seals and 10 bolts, they are all ground to take composite gaskets. in standard trim they flow the same as a vitesse head. HRC2479
hopefully someone can try to confirm this for me, but:
Pre 76 Heads : rubbish, very poor, should be upgraded. High CR but poor flow.
76 - 87 : SD1 Heads, all carb spec heads, decent flow, enlarged valve size, standard valves and basic valve stem seals. reasonable heads. ERC0216. easily distinguishable by not having inlet cutouts or wasted stem valves.
84 - 94 : it gets very confusing. bear in mind there are still carb heads around until 87 anyway, plus land rover really mix it up:
the 190bhp SD1 Vitesse (also vanden plas) is released in 84 which has EFi as standard and therefore has the cutouts, but also has flowed back-cut valves with wasted stems. range rover heads produced for carb engines are still the same as basic SD1 heads however, but as range rovers start to receive flapper systems, they get injector cutouts but still basic valves. the same for EFi discos as of 91 onwards. production carried on this way for land rover right up to 94 where suffix A engines were probably no longer made, and D1 3.9s were most likely built from old stock.
NB. there are a number of cases during this period where old stock confuses the issue.
for instance the 4.2 engine uses a Vitesse spec head, but with an extra grind to take composite gaskets. the outer 4 bolt holes in the head were still there but blocked up. the 3.9 disco engine was likely a vitesse head but without the grind to take tin gaskets and 14 bolts. all these variations take HRC2210, the only way to check whats what is to look at the cutout and/or to see if it has wasted stems, which basically means it will flow as well as a 4.6 head.
94 onwards : 10 bolt heads are produced, whole new casting. same valves as vitesse spec heads, uprated springs but minimal difference. much better valve stem seals than ever before. some say these had larger ports than 2210 heads, other say there was more material so more porting was possible. ALL 4.6 heads have wasted valve stems, the best stem seals and 10 bolts, they are all ground to take composite gaskets. in standard trim they flow the same as a vitesse head. HRC2479
MGBGTV8
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hehe! I did mention it was going to get complicated the more you read in to it. Of course you're only looking at the main stream stuff there if you want to look at the small volume output stuff like morgans, TVR, Caterhams and MG's it gets even more complicated!
Then of course, the info you've researched is only tells you about standard heads. Got to love Rover - something so simple generates an awful lot of head scratching!
Then of course, the info you've researched is only tells you about standard heads. Got to love Rover - something so simple generates an awful lot of head scratching!
Mr Noisy
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hello MGBGTV8, i really should ask your name!
yes its true, i do not have a lot of money to throw at the heads.
i have now worked out that my land rover efi heads are the same as SD1 heads, but land rover efi heads have the cutout, whereas SD1 efi heads were built with better valves as they were intended for the 190bhp Vitesse.
So the simple and cheap option for me is to perform and simple grind and/or port match on my current ERC0216 SD1 carb heads to open up the ports sufficiently, and they will be exactly the same if not a teeny bit better than my original HRC2210 efi heads.
the next cheapest and all round better option is to fit a set of 4.6 heads which will not only have wasted stems and better stem seals, but they will take composite gaskets.
however this gets pricey because there will be a cost to check and recon the 4.6 heads, plus gaskets, and stretch bolts or ARP studs are needed.
I am therefore glad that after a grind my current heads will be the same as the original heads, despite being the early casting.
4.6 heads would be a nice bolt-on upgrade, slightly more flow and much better gaskets, but may prove just too expensive to be worthwhile...
and that's it, i think i got to the bottom of it
yes its true, i do not have a lot of money to throw at the heads.
i have now worked out that my land rover efi heads are the same as SD1 heads, but land rover efi heads have the cutout, whereas SD1 efi heads were built with better valves as they were intended for the 190bhp Vitesse.
So the simple and cheap option for me is to perform and simple grind and/or port match on my current ERC0216 SD1 carb heads to open up the ports sufficiently, and they will be exactly the same if not a teeny bit better than my original HRC2210 efi heads.
the next cheapest and all round better option is to fit a set of 4.6 heads which will not only have wasted stems and better stem seals, but they will take composite gaskets.
however this gets pricey because there will be a cost to check and recon the 4.6 heads, plus gaskets, and stretch bolts or ARP studs are needed.
I am therefore glad that after a grind my current heads will be the same as the original heads, despite being the early casting.
4.6 heads would be a nice bolt-on upgrade, slightly more flow and much better gaskets, but may prove just too expensive to be worthwhile...
and that's it, i think i got to the bottom of it
Mr Noisy
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hehe! I did mention it was going to get complicated the more you read in to it. Of course you're only looking at the main stream stuff there if you want to look at the small volume output stuff like morgans, TVR, Caterhams and MG's it gets even more complicated!
Then of course, the info you've researched is only tells you about standard heads. Got to love Rover - something so simple generates an awful lot of head scratching!
oh jesus, wouldnt even want to get into the small volume stuff, i bet there's a million one-offs out there!!!!
jamesmartin
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you could but it would be pointless unless you looked at every aspect of the engine ,you have to just look at what you want /expect ,its a subject than get a bit anal ,no point improving part of a system past the point another becomes hinderance
