Assembly in China / End of Lode Lane

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Loosely on the same subject, those who claim buses are the future of
> transport don't know the figures. At a recent meeting I attended with the
> Council's head of transport about a new park and ride scheme they're
> starting in Scarborough, he had to admit that the modern buses they were
> going to use do a whole 4MPG, yes I did say four!. Considering a modern
> small Diesel car does about 15 times that, the buses need to be carrying
> an
> average of about 50 people just to break even on the pollution produced.
> In
> reality they aren't going to achieve that so one of the main reasons for
> the
> scheme, reducing pollution, just doesn't hold water.

Well, that and the fact that half of Scarborough's income comes from
parking fees...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"EMB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greg wrote:
> > Loosely on the same subject, those who claim buses are the future of
> > transport don't know the figures. At a recent meeting I attended with
the
> > Council's head of transport about a new park and ride scheme they're
> > starting in Scarborough, he had to admit that the modern buses they were
> > going to use do a whole 4MPG, yes I did say four!.
>
> Time for them to change bus manufacturers. I track fleet fuel usage for
> one of my clients - even his trucks running at 44 tonnes with 600PS
> engines are returning better than 5.4MPG, and that's in NZ where we have
> a lot of hills.

I can't verify the figures, but bear in mind that shuttle buses are driving
in town traffic with lots of stops and starts, despite all the bus lanes and
automatic traffic lights they intend to install, they sit at stops for a
significant proportion of the route which is also hilly. Lorries, on the
other hand, spend most of their time on the open road. I suppose it's fairer
to compare the buses MPG with a cars urban cycle MPG, but still the cars the
buses replace wouldn't be sitting at bus stops either they'd be going
straight to a park and stopping.
Greg

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>But 4mpg sounds a bit crap, even so.

It amazed me so I queried it. Frankly the whole park and ride scheme has
more to do with letting the council sell land to Travelodge and getting huge
government grants than it's stated aims or reducing pollution and
congestion, the whole capacity of the scheme is only 10% of the daily intake
of tourists so isn't going to significantly impact the congestion problems
either.
Greg

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> The big issue with air travel is supposed to be what they pump out and
> where they pump it, not how much the MPG figure is. I don't know the
> details though, I just remember that the fuss was not about MPG but
> they are supposed to be much more damaging for other reasons.

Being a cynic I expect each side to claim the figures that support their
case are the big issue . The anti-air-travel brigade don't want it known
that it produces far less pollution if 50 reps fly from Manchester to London
in one plane than drive in 50 cars, they would rather point out that they
would be better in one train, along with hundreds of other people, so flying
must be the most evil thing in the universe!.

Greg

"William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Well, that and the fact that half of Scarborough's income comes from
> parking fees...

Oh don't get me started!, they say the park and ride car parks will be free
with subsidised bus fares, but when pushed admit they will be "forced" to
put up all the parking fees in town "significantly" to persuade people to
use the park and rides, so the 90% of visitors who can't get into the
undersized park and rides and the 100% of shoppers who don't want to cart
their purchases on shuttle buses will have to pay lots more, you can just
see the pound signs in the eyes. It's a very contentious issue and they know
it, I had a 'disagreement with the County Councillor who holds the traffic
portfolio at the last council meeting as he insisted the rises would "not be
significant if he had anything to do with it", if they're not then by
definition the increases won't persuade people to use the scheme so are
unjustified? .

Greg

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Well, that and the fact that half of Scarborough's income comes from
>> parking fees...
>
> Oh don't get me started!, they say the park and ride car parks will be
> free
> with subsidised bus fares, but when pushed admit they will be "forced" to
> put up all the parking fees in town "significantly" to persuade people to
> use the park and rides, so the 90% of visitors who can't get into the
> undersized park and rides and the 100% of shoppers who don't want to cart
> their purchases on shuttle buses will have to pay lots more, you can just
> see the pound signs in the eyes. It's a very contentious issue and they
> know
> it, I had a 'disagreement with the County Councillor who holds the traffic
> portfolio at the last council meeting as he insisted the rises would "not
> be
> significant if he had anything to do with it", if they're not then by
> definition the increases won't persuade people to use the scheme so are
> unjustified? .

Well up to a year or so ago I had a Scarborough 'Tradesman's Parking permit'
which makes most of the mess go away and I notice that the council offices
car parks are always full on Saturdays when nobody's working, so the people
who make the decisions probably never pay for parking in Scarborough...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

In message <[email protected]>
"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >But 4mpg sounds a bit crap, even so.
>
> It amazed me so I queried it. Frankly the whole park and ride scheme has
> more to do with letting the council sell land to Travelodge and getting huge
> government grants than it's stated aims or reducing pollution and
> congestion, the whole capacity of the scheme is only 10% of the daily intake
> of tourists so isn't going to significantly impact the congestion problems
> either.
> Greg
>
>

It'll make them worse - unless there a full (i.e. not intermittent)
bus lanes. Without conductors, busses block the roads while passengers
are getting on, making things worse rather than better! Obviously,
if these park and ride busses don't stop on the way it won't have
that effect.

I suspect your are right about the real motive though, it's
funny how these schemes always involve selling prime land, and
yet the Council Tax never comes down, and the Chief Exceutive
gets a new office, or the planning sub-comitte suddenly realy
must go to Prague for the weekend to research something or other
(expenses paid).

I'd be a lot more convinced if the money raised/saved was actually
accounted for rather than just disppearing into the general pot,
i.e. "sold land at <address>" = "built social housing/hospice/etc".
Doubtless the council will say it's far too complicated to do that,
but then what are the accountants doing if they can't - now there's
an opportunity for savings!

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive

"William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Well up to a year or so ago I had a Scarborough 'Tradesman's Parking
permit'
> which makes most of the mess go away and I notice that the council offices
> car parks are always full on Saturdays when nobody's working, so the
people
> who make the decisions probably never pay for parking in Scarborough...

Funnily enough they get all defensive when you point that out
Greg

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Well up to a year or so ago I had a Scarborough 'Tradesman's Parking
> permit'
>> which makes most of the mess go away and I notice that the council
>> offices
>> car parks are always full on Saturdays when nobody's working, so the
> people
>> who make the decisions probably never pay for parking in Scarborough...
>
> Funnily enough they get all defensive when you point that out

On the other hand anyone prepared to work for Scarborough Council probably
considers free parking for going shopping a fair recompense for having to
put up with the jokes.

No work yet down at The Corner I notice

I wonder what's gone wrong there...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:18dfd47c4e%[email protected]...

> It'll make them worse - unless there a full (i.e. not intermittent)
> bus lanes.

Only one bus every ten minute using each bus lane is definitely not going to
keep it full, so yes I would agree, the automatic lights giving them
priority are also going to upset the whole traffic management in the town.
But hey, what do we know!.

They're also building a bypass of Reighton on the main road from Scarborough
to Brid, nothing wrong with that, except that they are absolutely adamant
that it only needs round abouts at the two ends and not where the main road
from my village, Hunmanby, joins into it. So we have to emerge at a T
junction near the end of a long straight run where cars will easily reach
80, it seems it will take a few deaths before they 'discover' the blindingly
obvious and have to spend far more building the roundabout after the event
than they would now. Unofficially I've been told the simple truth, there
isn't enough money in the pot for three round abouts so it's either this or
nothing, but money will be found after enough people have died to clock up
enough points to get the junction changed, that's the ludicrous way
government works in this country.

Greg

On Saturday, in article <[email protected]>
[email protected] "EMB" wrote:

> Greg wrote:
> > Loosely on the same subject, those who claim buses are the future of
> > transport don't know the figures. At a recent meeting I attended with the
> > Council's head of transport about a new park and ride scheme they're
> > starting in Scarborough, he had to admit that the modern buses they were
> > going to use do a whole 4MPG, yes I did say four!.
>
> Time for them to change bus manufacturers. I track fleet fuel usage for
> one of my clients - even his trucks running at 44 tonnes with 600PS
> engines are returning better than 5.4MPG, and that's in NZ where we have
> a lot of hills.

A bus shouldn't be that heavy, but it is likely to be running in
something like urban cycle, and you need to use that sort of figure for
the cars when you make the comparison. I think that's a mistake that
gets made a lot, and sometimes it's made the other way to favour the bus
solution.

It's also worth remembering that there are congestion effects driven by
the number of vehicles. You need the same road-space between any two
vehicles, whether bus or Smart, but you need more Smarts.

I don't think there's a single correct answer, but you do have to think
carefully about how you're asking the question. And some people just go
for the emotional and obvious: how many of them bother to measure one of
those "huge" Land Rovers?


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."

"William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> No work yet down at The Corner I notice
>
> I wonder what's gone wrong there...

Lord knows, I used to live very near there so took notice of it all but
since moving out of town I really can't be bothered with the fiasco. I
strongly suspect the final outcome will be nothing more than a large number
of houses all over the area and no facilities for tourism at all, since from
the developers point of view that makes the most profit. I will be very
surprised if all the claims of building nice new tourist facilities, car
parks etc are anything more than a ploy.
Greg

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "William Black" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> No work yet down at The Corner I notice
>>
>> I wonder what's gone wrong there...
>
> Lord knows, I used to live very near there so took notice of it all but
> since moving out of town I really can't be bothered with the fiasco. I
> strongly suspect the final outcome will be nothing more than a large
> number
> of houses all over the area and no facilities for tourism at all, since
> from
> the developers point of view that makes the most profit. I will be very
> surprised if all the claims of building nice new tourist facilities, car
> parks etc are anything more than a ploy.

Well you're not the only one to think that.

However, who's going to buy a time-share in Scarborough for Febuary?

I have a nasty suspicion that the funding has fallen through...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Greg wrote:

> ...... after enough people have died to clock up
> enough points to get the junction changed

Ah! .... It'll qualify for speed cameras. More income.

"Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greg wrote:
>
>> ...... after enough people have died to clock up
>> enough points to get the junction changed
>
> Ah! .... It'll qualify for speed cameras. More income.

No speed cameras in North Yorkshire.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

William Black wrote:

> "Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Greg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...... after enough people have died to clock up
>>>enough points to get the junction changed
>>
>>Ah! .... It'll qualify for speed cameras. More income.
>
>
> No speed cameras in North Yorkshire.

Is that true? I thought that Durham was the only English County
without fixed speed cameras.

On 2006-10-28, "David G. Bell" <[email protected]> wrote:

> And some people just go for the emotional and obvious: how many of
> them bother to measure one of those "huge" Land Rovers?

Well, my 110 is longer than my Audi A4, by a whole 1.3cm. Takes up
loads more road space!

The landy's shorter and narrower than my old Lotus, which people describe as
"tiny"...

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On or around Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:27:27 +0100, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On 2006-10-28, "David G. Bell" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> And some people just go for the emotional and obvious: how many of
>> them bother to measure one of those "huge" Land Rovers?
>
>Well, my 110 is longer than my Audi A4, by a whole 1.3cm. Takes up
>loads more road space!
>
>The landy's shorter and narrower than my old Lotus, which people describe as
>"tiny"...

Which lotus? Europa?
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Festina Lente" (Hasten slowly) Suetonius (c.70-c.140) Augustus, 25

Yes but the average daily trip by aircraft is much much more than you can
drive in a full day in a car.

Larry
--
Series 3 Rust and Holes

"Oily" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Against the car with four people on board at 180 MPG/P??
>
> Martin
>
>

I saw an old daimler in our transport museum that claimed 12mpg so wheres
the improvement gone ?

Larry
--
Series 3 Rust and Holes


"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Loosely on the same subject, those who claim buses are the future of
> transport don't know the figures. At a recent meeting I attended with the
> Council's head of transport about a new park and ride scheme they're
> starting in Scarborough, he had to admit that the modern buses they were
> going to use do a whole 4MPG, yes I did say four!. Considering a modern
> small Diesel car does about 15 times that, the buses need to be carrying
> an
> average of about 50 people just to break even on the pollution produced.
> In
> reality they aren't going to achieve that so one of the main reasons for
> the
> scheme, reducing pollution, just doesn't hold water.
>
> Greg
>
>