Another V8 mate

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A

ade1

Member
Posts
13
Location
Leeds
Bought my first RR, an 89 Vogue a week ago,3.5 EFI (flapper),LPG as well.I've had starting problems with it,started it from cold,on petrol, 10 mins ago runs OK til it has warmed up,then it stops and won't start,maybe tries a bit,same on gas.My only experience of these engines (SD1) is running two big SUs so don't really know where to start,any help appreciated.
Also does anyone know of any where in the Leeds/Bradford area that deals with these engines?
 
What's the spark like when cold & is the spark the same when warmed up or weaker?
Does your dizzy have the ignition amplifier mounted on its side or remotely on the left hand (viewed from driver's seat looking forward) inner wing top under the coil?
 
I don’t know much (anything really) about the flapper system.

but could I just ask. When it stops does it sounds like it’s running over rich? Would it stay running at higher revs?
Might help others who know the system:)

@Ratae suggestions to check are worth looking as things can fail when hot. So a good check of the sparky side is worth time spent.

Good luck.

J
 
Ratae said:
What's the spark like when cold & is the spark the same when warmed up or weaker?
Does your dizzy have the ignition amplifier mounted on its side or remotely on the left hand (viewed from driver's seat looking forward) inner wing top under the coil?
Click to expand...

Spark cold is fat and bright,have not had chance to check when warm,tried to start it cold this afternoon and it wouldn't .Amp is on the dizzy,there is a RPI A&R power amp on the wing but it is not connected. I'll see if the engine will co-operate tomorrow and try the spark warm.
 
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marjon said:
I don’t know much (anything really) about the flapper system.

but could I just ask. When it stops does it sounds like it’s running over rich? Would it stay running at higher revs?
Might help others who know the system:)

@Ratae suggestions to check are worth looking as things can fail when hot. So a good check of the sparky side is worth time spent.

Good luck.

J
Click to expand...
 
Afraid I can't say,I left it running and came inside this morning,when I went out 10 mins later it had stopped.When I brought it home for the first time last week I struggled to get it in the garden,just would not idle,difficult to start on gas,no chance on petrol.If it runs tomorrow I'll pull a plug when it stops,see what it looks like.
 
Reason I ask about the amplifier is that the ones on the side of the dizzy are known for being affected by heat.
So much so that LR introduced a kit - STC1856 - to mount them remotely away from the dizzy.

I think it's unlikely to be fuel as you say it's the flapper type AFM & that ECU - 4CU - doesn't have anything to do with ignition, it only controls petrol fuelling.
http://www.carelect.demon.co.uk/rrp1.html

You have an issue on both fuels & on mine - also petrol/LPG - when neither fuel runs properly that has always been an ignition issue. Although in mine it's been a misfire due to a dying plug or a pattern dizzy cap.
Just to eliminate, check that all your air hoses are OK & none are split or displaced - I did have a petrol running issue some time ago with the U shaped hose that goes from the plenum to the extra air valve (ERC9117) having split at one end. As it let lots of air into the plenum without it passing through the AFM the mix was very very weak. Fortunately it was OK on LPG.

Out of curiosity what LPG system have you got?
 
Simple things first. Is the crankcase breather ‘flame trap’ and its hose to the plenum clean, also air filter.
Assuming plug leads are in good condition, not shorting to metal or each other when engine is hot. Then you can move on to testing the EFI coolant temperature sensor is working correctly, when the engine is hot a faulty sensor will give a misfire and finely stalling the engine. so test or replace.
 
'89 was the last year of the 3.5efi with the 3.9 introduced in Oct. of that year, examples of which had their own problems such as more complex electronics & a propensity to slip cylinder liners.
I hope you can rectify the fault & enjoy the driving experience of what is the least complicated RR made since EFI was added to the 1960's designed engine. Over the past 18 years I've owned four of them & not one has (yet) come home on the back of a recovery truck ;)
 
norseman said:
'89 was the last year of the 3.5efi with the 3.9 introduced in Oct. of that year, examples of which had their own problems such as more complex electronics & a propensity to slip cylinder liners.
I hope you can rectify the fault & enjoy the driving experience of what is the least complicated RR made since EFI was added to the 1960's designed engine. Over the past 18 years I've owned four of them & not one has (yet) come home on the back of a recovery truck ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for your replies,I'll get outside and have a look soon,at least it's sunny today.Bit narked as it was sold as having a recon engine,maybe it was 10 years ago or so.I even checked he had not warmed it up before I got there,never thought it might be the other way round... Interesting link Ratae,I have a mate with afield littered with dead RRs,he showed me one with the AF box blown apart by a gas blowback.I'll do the checks listed and try and find a coolant temp sensor as mentioned,behind the easy one.Thought you would be thinking the ign.amp. could be affected by heat,pity they didn't stick to the SD1 type,sandwiched in a chunk of ally and bolted to the wing.
 
ade1 said:
Thanks for your replies,I'll get outside and have a look soon,at least it's sunny today.Bit narked as it was sold as having a recon engine,maybe it was 10 years ago or so.I even checked he had not warmed it up before I got there,never thought it might be the other way round... Interesting link Ratae,I have a mate with afield littered with dead RRs,he showed me one with the AF box blown apart by a gas blowback.I'll do the checks listed and try and find a coolant temp sensor as mentioned,behind the easy one.Thought you would be thinking the ign.amp. could be affected by heat,pity they didn't stick to the SD1 type,sandwiched in a chunk of ally and bolted to the wing.
Click to expand...
The gas system is an Omvl.
 
A totally blocked flame trap &/or its passage in the plenum body at the other end of the hose will cause the crankcase to pressurise & you'll have oil leaks from all sorts of interesting places.
Guess how I know - didn't adversely affect the running but I did need to use a twist drill in my fingers to clear the plenum passages, the crud was solid. Discovered on its first distance run in my ownership & I now treat flushing the passages with aerosol brake & clutch cleaner as a service item.
If the same hose is not connected & the passages are clear then the car may not run at all - mine cuts out if I pull the hose off.

The gas ring type LPG conversion which introduces the gas into the plenum tends to be the one that has the flashback issue - it's more likely to happen on a manually switched system if you change over to LPG from petrol on other than a closed throttle.
Mine was gas ring but I changed to a BLOS some years ago & have been very happy with it.
Flashback arrestors are available & are a better option than the suggested method of leaving the air hose clips loose in the hope it will just blow a hose off.
Worth a read: http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Hints.html

Mine is the older amplifier, bolted to the inner wing top with the coil on top of it.
 
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Ratae said:
A totally blocked flame trap &/or its passage in the plenum body at the other end of the hose will cause the crankcase to pressurise & you'll have oil leaks from all sorts of interesting places.
Guess how I know - didn't adversely affect the running but I did need to use a twist drill in my fingers to clear the plenum passages, the crud was solid. Discovered on its first distance run in my ownership & I now treat flushing the passages with aerosol brake & clutch cleaner as a service item.
If the same hose is not connected & the passages are clear then the car may not run at all - mine cuts out if I pull the hose off.

The gas ring type LPG conversion which introduces the gas into the plenum tends to be the one that has the flashback issue - it's more likely to happen on a manually switched system if you change over to LPG from petrol on other than a closed throttle.
Mine was gas ring but I changed to a BLOS some years ago & have been very happy with it.
Flashback arrestors are available & are a better option than the suggested method of leaving the air hose clips loose in the hope it will just blow a hose off.
Worth a read: http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/Hints.html

Mine is the older amplifier, bolted to the inner wing top with the coil on top of it.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately I havn't been able to do anything with the flame trap,the hose,with electrical tape round one end,is so hard I will have to destroy it to remove,so want to get a replacement first.I was going thru some spares that came with it and found a new amp,but my suspicions are turning to overfuelling,plugs were sooty black before starting,engine did 10 mins again before stopping,plugs still sooty.Contrary to your experience the vac pipe to the plenum was dangling free and unplugged,plugging it made no difference,not blocked either.Crucially there is no fuel pipe connected to the cold start injector,probably been removed to get the engine to start .Managed to get to the ECU (can't see how the seats slide back and forth,up,down and all angles to the back rest yes) and the seals are broken,so someone's been in it.
When the engine stopped it started straight away on the gas but it must be leaking,absolutely reeked under the bonnet.have to get it checked for that and for isurance,might be worth getting it changed to the injector type at the same time,don't want to sort everything and then blow the flapper out.Perhaps my first move should be sending the ECU to the place in your link,if that's not right seems pointless checking other stuff,what do you think ? Thanks for your help,didn't really know where to start.
 
Disconnecting the ninth injector is common. Not needed in most climates. One of the first things I did with mine was disconnect its wiring.

I replaced much of my flametrap to plenum hose with pipe of the same bore as the original was rock hard. Just to be certain we are talking about the same hose it runs from the top of the flametrap to the plenum.

The flametrap can block as can the narrow passages in the body of the plenum but I'd be surprised if the hose did as its bore is quite large.
The plenum passageways are in the body of the plenum & to get them you need to pull out the metal tube the hose connects to. It's a tight fit & will need a smear of sealant when refitting.
From the side of this metal tube the passage turns 90 deg towards the offside (UK car) for a short distance the 90 deg towards the rear of the car & into the plenum. If you prop the throttle butterfly open & look into the plenum from the nearside you can see the hole in the plenum the gases enter by.

That the ECU appears to have been fiddled with is a concern, the 4CU does have something of a reputation. I've had a number fail on my car over the 25 years I've had it but as they only control the fuelling if mine runs fine on LPG but not on petrol it has always been a fuelling issue. Sudden rough running and/or big clouds of black smoke from the exhaust have been my symptoms.
I've put this link in another thread (https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/3-5-v8-won’t-start.352207/) & I'd suggest you have a look: http://www.carelect.demon.co.uk/rrp1.html
Note that it advises ALWAYS changing the ECU temp sensor - which is on top of the inlet manifold behind the easy one & is item 15 in this pic. If this is defective the ECU will think the engine is still cold even though it is hot & will continue to pour in the fuel so you will have a very rich mixture: http://new.lrcat.com/#!/1230/73417/75066/6026
(Discool also told you about this sensor.)
The ECU is held to the floor by big screws & slots onto a couple of them (been a while since I've needed to take one out, even though I carry a good spare in the car!). It's earthed by wire, not through being fixed to the floor.

Does it run OK on LPG? You say it started straightaway on LPG after cutting out on petrol. You also mention a possible leak but bear in mind that the stenching agent in LPG does not burn so are you sure it isn't just the smell from the exhaust? But better safe than sorry so get it checked out.
When I fuel mine the adapter smells for several days. Not a leak as it's a screw in one that I fit to fuel & unscrew on completion.
 
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Ratae said:
Disconnecting the ninth injector is common. Not needed in most climates. One of the first things I did with mine was disconnect its wiring.

I replaced much of my flametrap to plenum hose with pipe of the same bore as the original was rock hard. Just to be certain we are talking about the same hose it runs from the top of the flametrap to the plenum.

The flametrap can block as can the narrow passages in the body of the plenum but I'd be surprised if the hose did as its bore is quite large.
The plenum passageways are in the body of the plenum & to get them you need to pull out the metal tube the hose connects to. It's a tight fit & will need a smear of sealant when refitting.
From the side of this metal tube the passage turns 90 deg towards the offside (UK car) for a short distance the 90 deg towards the rear of the car & into the plenum. If you prop the throttle butterfly open & look into the plenum from the nearside you can see the hole in the plenum the gases enter by.

That the ECU appears to have been fiddled with is a concern, the 4CU does have something of a reputation. I've had a number fail on my car over the 25 years I've had it but as they only control the fuelling if mine runs fine on LPG but not on petrol it has always been a fuelling issue. Sudden rough running and/or big clouds of black smoke from the exhaust have been my symptoms.

I've put this link in another thread (https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/3-5-v8-won’t-start.352207/) & I'd suggest you have a look: http://www.carelect.demon.co.uk/rrp1.html
Note that it advises ALWAYS changing the ECU temp sensor - which is on top of the inlet manifold behind the easy one & is item 15 in this pic. If this is defective the ECU will think the engine is still cold even though it is hot & will continue to pour in the fuel so you will have a very rich mixture: http://new.lrcat.com/#!/1230/73417/75066/6026
(Discool also told you about this sensor.)
The ECU is held to the floor by big screws & slots onto a couple of them (been a while since I've needed to take one out, even though I carry a good spare in the car!). It's earthed by wire, not through being fixed to the floor.

Does it run OK on LPG? You say it started straightaway on LPG after cutting out on petrol. You also mention a possible leak but bear in mind that the stenching agent in LPG does not burn so are you sure it isn't just the smell from the exhaust? But better safe than sorry so get it checked out.
When I fuel mine the adapter smells for several days. Not a leak as it's a screw in one that I fit to fuel & unscrew on completion.
Click to expand...
 
I appreciate what you are saying about the flametrap/hose/plenum and will sort that as soon as I get a replacement.Thanks for the diagram,I could not locate the sensor yesterday,could only find the two at the front. I'll get that first before condeming the ECU.Forgot to mention it is absolutely drinking fuel,1/8 tank just doing this.AFM flapper moves smoothly.Havn't got so much time today,shane as it's sunny,no cover unfortunately.
 
ade1 said:
I appreciate what you are saying about the flametrap/hose/plenum and will sort that as soon as I get a replacement.Thanks for the diagram,I could not locate the sensor yesterday,could only find the two at the front. I'll get that first before condeming the ECU.Forgot to mention it is absolutely drinking fuel,1/8 tank just doing this.AFM flapper moves smoothly.Havn't got so much time today,shane as it's sunny,no cover unfortunately.
Click to expand...



Finally I have had some spare time that has co-incided with dry weather.Having fitted the new temp sensor the engine ran on petrol for 20 mins without stopping and started immediately after switch off,so I doff my hat to you all for your expert advice.The only slight problem is I can't get it to idle below 1500 r.p.m.,a bit dodgy with an auto,especially as it seems to have no interlocks and will start in drive ! I have wound the adjuster right down and ensured the cable is not too tight,ran out of daylight to explore further.
 
Check that the throttle butterfly closes & isn't stuck slightly more open than it should be.
On the flapper (no stepper motor) it is correctly set when you can get a 0.05mm(0.002in) feeler gauge between the butterfly & the bottom of its bore.
To adjust the idle speed remove its anti-tamper plug & turn the idle adjustment screw on the plenum chamber (Clockwise decreases speed - anti clockwise increases speed)
 
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