200TDI in a Series 2

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Gpo

Gpo

Member
Posts
20
Location
Ireland
Hi. I am pretty new to this all. I have a 58 Series 2 which I put a 200tdi in, including the LT77 gearbox and R230 1.404 transfer box. Runs ok, but I am struggling with a engine strange issue.
I have had it at my local Land Rover expert, and a diesel specialist and am still no better off. The only difference is they did relive me of lots of ££ for a refurb on the injector pump and injectors.
The engine will not "Rev " freely..... As you accelerate it's fine at first but then flattens out like a "Plato" if you keep pushing the accelerator to the floor it eventually kicks off again and rev's fine. I am calling it a huge "flat Spot" not sure what else to call it. The way I have to drive it is foot to the floor, change gear and foot to the floor and so on till I hit 5th... also top speed is just 50mph...55 going dow hill. (given that its a 200tdi with Lt77 and a R230 1.404 transfer box and disco differentials.. we really thought it would have a reasonable top speed.. at least 60 / 65.
In short, I feel the engine is not reviving correctly (at rest or when driving) and most likely not getting to max reves. Remember I have no experience of defenders so really have no benchmark, but it just can't be right. Foot to the floor ALL the time ??
So far I have had the injector pump refurbished £££
The injectors tested.
rigged up a gravity feed to the injector pump.
Checked the return fuel bango
Bleed all air out. (starts on the button.. every time)
I have been driving around just fine but now what to start getting to the bottom of this.
Its not smoking and doing about 35mpg... :)
The popular theory is fuel starvation....
Has anyone else had such an issue? I would appreciate all suggestions/guidance.
 
Sounds to me like the turbo aint doing its job, now before you rush of and replace it thinking it is at fault which I dont think it is, look at the top of the injector pump, see the small 6mm black plastic pipe? follow it to the turbo itself and make sure it is connected and not damaged along its length.
This pipe tells the injector pump how much boost pressure the turbo is making, more boost=more fuel, no boost signal= no extra fuel meaning it will drive like a natrually aspirated 2.5 diesel, ie as flat as a week old turd!
If the pipe is fine, then you need to pop the top off the pump boost capsule (4 screws), note/mark position of rubber, then rotate it once full turn and lift it out, shine a torch down the bottom of the exposed hole, slowly apply the throttle (engine off!) and you should see a little pin work its way into the hole, throttle released and the pin will return (might need poking woth a screwdriver)
The pin can seize,again causing no extra fuel as turbo starts to make boost, but doubtful as you have had the pump done, but you never know?

My old 300 had this pipe split, and top speeed was pretty much 50mph.

Google Bosch VE pump and have a read, also search how to tune the Bosch VE pump, mainly yanks on cummins engines, but same principals apply.

I note you say fuel banjos? have you got the right banjo in the correct hole on the inj pump? return line has the banjo with the restrictor in it.
 
Ps tdi in series 2 with std series diffs and engine on the rev limiter top speed is about 55/60, with 3.5 diffs 80mph is easily achievable.
Wet roundabouts are fun!
 
ok... well something is very wrong with mine. I have a 200tdi, LT77, R230 1.404 transfer box and 3.5 ratio Disco differs running on 30" tyres... but it all comes back to the engine. It has a huge Flat Spot... as you accelerate it start out fine and then stops accelerating until your foot is pretty much on the floor... and tops out at 55 mph at a real push. I have a few things to check... Boost pressure, and get a rev counter rigid up... I was also thinking what happens when your lift pump goes ?? how can you test it... primes fine when hand operated... as I said I have had the local Landrover expert have a look ... but to be honest, he gave it back to me with an airlock in the cooling and overheating, a loose alternator and crankshaft pulley that fell off after 50 miles ... I wouldn't trust him with a gocart after that experience ..
But leave it with me..this evening I will check the turbo to injecter pump 6mm pipe (again) looked fine no splits and 2 hose clips securing it at the turbo end... I will have a look at the top of the injector pump and see about the pin you refer to... I am only a diy machanic. I am not keen in fiddling with things I am not 100% on. I have done all the research on the boost twikeing. but would prefer to get it working as it should first... Also a bit concerned about STOPING if it really does take off and do 70mph... remember it is 62 yr old running gear.
 
Gpo said:
ok... well something is very wrong with mine. I have a 200tdi, LT77, R230 1.404 transfer box and 3.5 ratio Disco differs running on 30" tyres... but it all comes back to the engine. It has a huge Flat Spot... as you accelerate it start out fine and then stops accelerating until your foot is pretty much on the floor... and tops out at 55 mph at a real push. I have a few things to check... Boost pressure, and get a rev counter rigid up... I was also thinking what happens when your lift pump goes ?? how can you test it... primes fine when hand operated... as I said I have had the local Landrover expert have a look ... but to be honest, he gave it back to me with an airlock in the cooling and overheating, a loose alternator and crankshaft pulley that fell off after 50 miles ... I wouldn't trust him with a gocart after that experience ..
But leave it with me..this evening I will check the turbo to injecter pump 6mm pipe (again) looked fine no splits and 2 hose clips securing it at the turbo end... I will have a look at the top of the injector pump and see about the pin you refer to... I am only a diy machanic. I am not keen in fiddling with things I am not 100% on. I have done all the research on the boost twikeing. but would prefer to get it working as it should first... Also a bit concerned about STOPING if it really does take off and do 70mph... remember it is 62 yr old running gear.
Click to expand...


Sorry i didnt explain myself very well, I did not mean give the pump a tune up, more the reading will teach you how the fuel pin (at the bottom of the hole I mention above) reacts with the boost pin (the bit under teh rubber bit) when under turbo boost pressure.

I have had lift pumps die on the 90tdi, and all that happens is the power is lacking at higher rpms, I went though so many lift pumps, I gave up and fitted a cheap copy Facet unit.
The lift pump guts are slighty disconnected from each other inside the lift pump, ie the manual lever can work just fine, yet the camshaft driven lever can be broken off, so the engine will not deliver fuel itself.

It is worth bearing in ming the fuel inj pump has its own internal lift pump, so it is not totally reliant on the engine mounted pump.

As for the engine running away, you need a co2 fire ext on board, if engine goes nuts, into neutral, stop car,lift bonnet, and inject fire ext into the engine air intake, no air = no run.
 
lynall said:
Sorry i didnt explain myself very well, I did not mean give the pump a tune up, more the reading will teach you how the fuel pin (at the bottom of the hole I mention above) reacts with the boost pin (the bit under teh rubber bit) when under turbo boost pressure.

I have had lift pumps die on the 90tdi, and all that happens is the power is lacking at higher rpms, I went though so many lift pumps, I gave up and fitted a cheap copy Facet unit.
The lift pump guts are slighty disconnected from each other inside the lift pump, ie the manual lever can work just fine, yet the camshaft driven lever can be broken off, so the engine will not deliver fuel itself.

It is worth bearing in ming the fuel inj pump has its own internal lift pump, so it is not totally reliant on the engine mounted pump.

As for the engine running away, you need a co2 fire ext on board, if engine goes nuts, into neutral, stop car,lift bonnet, and inject fire ext into the engine air intake, no air = no run.
Click to expand...

Or stuff your T-shirt in the air intake ....
 
There’s ricks tuning guide On here too in the technical archive
Strangely the fault guide mostly mentions black smoke
Perhaps as you say the fuel power screw needs a little tweak
 

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Well... I took off the 6mm black pipe that goes from the turbo to the injector pump and unfortunately it looks fine. I blow through it and it is fine. also checked the short black rubber hoes it goes into at the turbo end and while it has some marking from the hose clips it also looks free of cracks or leaks. I put it all back and made sure both ends were tight. Next, I tried to remove the "top hat" on the injector pump but the 4 slot head screws won't budge. I need to buy an impact driver. I gave them a bit of penetrating oil and left them overnight will have a go later this pm... trying to get any tools during this lock-in is a bit of an issue. I did understand correctly.. I need to check the pin at the bottom is moving freely and not stuck.
I am also trying to see if I cant get some sort of pressure gauge rigid up to see if there is any turbo pressure at the manifold. .
Is there any point in removing the hose from the intercooler to the inlet manifold and taking it for a spin? If the turbo had been working it would feel a loss of power. If it remains the same... we know its a turbo related issue? ... Can I damage anything by having unfiltered air go sight int the inlet manifold ? just a thought give all the motor factors round here are shut. .
view

view
 
ps... there is no smoke issue.... no black or white smoke unless I take off in the wrong gear and labour the engine than a good dose of black smoke... but normal running just fine.
 
Steve Wow... that's great. thanks for sending that link.
I have a series 2a Haynes manual but nothing on the 200tdi... I had a quick look and can see the 300tdi manual I am sure the 200 is there in that link you send somewhere . I will have to have a good look. but as I understand it the 300 & 200 are pretty similar.
A good question for you is can you accelerate smoothly through the gears evenly or do you just keep your foot to the floor like me?
Mine starts off fine but then as you keep pressing the accelerator ...nothing... press it some more and nothing ....the engine does not continue to accelerate.... it just stays at a constant speed until my foot is just about at the floor and then off she goes.... tops out at 50 /55. I have no idea what revs it is at .. noisy as hell of course.
I am thinking turbo for the lack of power as Lynhall suggests but I am not sure that would explain the "Flat Spot" as you accelerate... but I am just a DIY guy.. could be two different issues of course.
I will post an update when I get the top of the injector pump off and see if the "pin" at the bottom is simply stuck.
Here video... (just to note 2ed gear has lost its Syncro totally separate issue. so to avoid crashing I start out in 2ed not 1st. )
 
2nd gear sychron missing on lt77 isnt unusual
Try double declutching, none of this extra blip of the throttle bollacks on the way up, just, dip clutch, into neutral, dip clutch, then into 2nd gear, but smooth and fast, much harder on the way down, and you will need the throtle blip to match the rpms, you also need three feet if turning a corner, changing down and braking!

Have you any pics of the engine installation? not so we can take the psis, (well maybe a little!) but in case it is something obvious that you have not seen.
 
Gpo said:
Steve Wow... that's great. thanks for sending that link.
I have a series 2a Haynes manual but nothing on the 200tdi... I had a quick look and can see the 300tdi manual I am sure the 200 is there in that link you send somewhere . I will have to have a good look. but as I understand it the 300 & 200 are pretty similar.
A good question for you is can you accelerate smoothly through the gears evenly or do you just keep your foot to the floor like me?
Mine starts off fine but then as you keep pressing the accelerator ...nothing... press it some more and nothing ....the engine does not continue to accelerate.... it just stays at a constant speed until my foot is just about at the floor and then off she goes.... tops out at 50 /55. I have no idea what revs it is at .. noisy as hell of course.
I am thinking turbo for the lack of power as Lynhall suggests but I am not sure that would explain the "Flat Spot" as you accelerate... but I am just a DIY guy.. could be two different issues of course.
I will post an update when I get the top of the injector pump off and see if the "pin" at the bottom is simply stuck.
Here video... (just to note 2ed gear has lost its Syncro totally separate issue. so to avoid crashing I start out in 2ed not 1st. )
Click to expand...

when you press the pedal is it actually pulling on the pump lever enough
is boost pipe in good condition between turbo and injection pump
 
jamesmartin said:
when you press the pedal is it actually pulling on the pump lever enough
is boost pipe in good condition between turbo and injection pump
Click to expand...

James, he has checked the nylon signal pipe and the short rubber one turbo end.

I did have issues getting full inj pump throttle lever stroke on my 200 conversion.
 
As requested here are a few shots as we did the build. (and I say "we" as there was a group of ~6 working on the project, I was responsible for sourcing parts and bankrolling it all)
The only reason we swooped in a 200tdi and gearbox was the handbrake and gearbox on the original was seized solid (full of water)... and we had a 110 free to act as a doner. along with another 2a I salvage rights on. I think we still have the original 1958 2.25 diesel engine in the shed. It would have been nice to keep it more original I know, but the budget was a constraining factor all the way. Lots of short cuts to save a few $$ including not refurbishing the LT77 and taking a chance. I am still learning how to do this double-clutch thing and match rpms.. getting better but still a novice.

this is a very early 1958 Series 2 (not 2a)
The starting point.


Step one.

Step 2.

Step 3

Checking the fit.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IbY3uOtGbSRPZ3Wu1f0TJPblX0F2_6t5/view?usp=sharing
Step 4
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NJfN25ntdxxHtE730y8QrW5G9kIAta8o/view?usp=sharing
Step 5. Make it look nice.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XJjFbrZEfcjIqmM3rCHlABz4yJuDBNgT/view?usp=sharing
 
Now... as for this engine issue.
I have ordered a manual impact driver ( arrives Friday) to shift the 4 slotted screws to get the boost diagram chamber. I can safely say the guys that refurbished the injector pump did not open it ! not sure if they would have considered part of the injector pump? or maybe they were just cutting corners... wouldn't surprise me.
There was a suggestion to look at the "waste gate" and I can confirm it is not stuck as I can move it a screwdriver... it has a pretty heavy spring force on it but it I can get it to open and close manually with the "engine off" however with the engine running and revving it does not budge (should it ?? ). remember this in on the driveway .. no load. Gave it full throttle and nothing.
I am not sure how to confirm if the pump leaver is being moved all the was when the accelerator is pushed but looks like its fine.. goes all the way to the stop on the ip.
As soon as I get to look in the Compersater chamber I will confirm what's happening there and I hope at the same time to get pressure gauge on the inlet manifold, to see if we have any boost pressure. I can confirm that the turbo did blow the inlet hose off when we first started it up and so we all assumed the turbo was fine... we had so many other things on the list we were happy to put a line through the turbo as being ok.
I really appreciate the input here we will get to the bottom of it... Air, Fuel, exhaust that all it can be... given that there is no smoke black blue or white... as Lynall suggests it does sound like it is not getting the boost of fuel as the turbo kicks in .. or doesn't kick in I'm not sure. If we had an air issue we should see smoke ...maybe..... or of course it could be an exhaust restriction? but one step at a time.
I will let you know what I find.
 
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