2002 TD5 lazy morning start?!!

My defender starts on the third or fourth crank in the mornings. Temperature is around 10 deg. celsius but I was in -12 around a week ago and it started the same way.

I have already checked the glow plugs which are fine, I'm running 5w-30 fully synthetic oil and all the filters are new, vehicle is regularly serviced. EGR has been deleted.

Any ideas? I read somewhere something about cleaning the fuel lines or there is a filter in the lines that generally never needs cleaning or replacement, is there any such thing?

Please help!

is compression of the engine good, and what quality is the fuel your using, as i notice your out the country, poor fuel will affect starting

johnlad said:

is compression of the engine good, and what quality is the fuel your using, as i notice your out the country, poor fuel will affect starting

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Compression is good, there is no blow by and I am the first owner, the car is well taken care of!

It has 110k kms on the clock now and it has been running just fine on the same fuel since 2007, before that I was based in Dubai. The quality of the fuel is obviously not the way it should be but I don't think is too bad either.

Are you able to check Fuel pressure? should be 4 bar going into FPR. There is a filter in the rear wheel arch, also one integral to the in-tank lift pump. If pressure low, could be either of these filters or the lift pump itself. See many other threads on this subject under TD5 forum

How can I check the fuel pressure?

Do I have to drop the tank to clean the in tank filter?

What else should be checked?

Difficult to check unless you have access to a pressure guage. A quick and dirty way to guage the pressure is to disconnect the pipe from the tank where it goes into the regulator on the engine block, get someone to turn on the ignition/fuel pump. If you can hold your finger on the end of the pipe you do not have much pressure. If you end up spraying the engine compartment then you have a decent pressure!
To access the lift pump on a 110 is a drop the tank job. However most people, myself included, end up cutting an inspection hatch in the rear tub floor and accessing it that way. I can give you dimensions of where to cut if you need them.
First off however I would check/change the fuel filter above the rear axle wheel arch.

Right.... So should I wait for this issue to actually become a problem or should I start trouble shooting right away?

I read a few threads in the TD5 section. What are injector seals and copper washer? Can they be at fault? Should I change them because I have never replaced them. I read that replacing the copper washers makes a drastic difference as far as the power is concerned??!

I can only go by my experiences when I had starting and running problems. I did get a lot of good advice from other members of this forum. Think the consensus would be that if you feel there is a problem then you better start investigating or it will come back and bite you when you least need it or expect it!
Have you access to a fault code reader? I didn't so it was largely trial and error. If you have fault codes, there are others here who can advise.
For my own troubles, they were down to two problems. First was the fuel pump. It was noisy and "squealing" , does yours do that? does it go through the purge sequence when you do the 5 pumps on the accelerator with the ignition on?
Second problem was down to the injector copper washers. Two were blown allowing compressed gas to get back into the fuel line and thus reduce the diesel flow to injectors.
Again speaking for myself, replacing these washers breathed new life into the TD5. Hope that helps?

Raider td5 said:

Right.... So should I wait for this issue to actually become a problem or should I start trouble shooting right away?

I read a few threads in the TD5 section. What are injector seals and copper washer? Can they be at fault? Should I change them because I have never replaced them. I read that replacing the copper washers makes a drastic difference as far as the power is concerned??!

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yes changing the injector seals and washers makes a diffrence if there bad . i had a disco 2 TD5 and all of a sudden it hard start the same way yours did , after checking the usual pump ,filters,lines . i did the seals and washers and you could see the washer was pited on the #1 injector and not sealing properly . new ones fitted and starts first time

DerekT said:

I can only go by my experiences when I had starting and running problems. I did get a lot of good advice from other members of this forum. Think the consensus would be that if you feel there is a problem then you better start investigating or it will come back and bite you when you least need it or expect it!
Have you access to a fault code reader? I didn't so it was largely trial and error. If you have fault codes, there are others here who can advise.
For my own troubles, they were down to two problems. First was the fuel pump. It was noisy and "squealing" , does yours do that? does it go through the purge sequence when you do the 5 pumps on the accelerator with the ignition on?
Second problem was down to the injector copper washers. Two were blown allowing compressed gas to get back into the fuel line and thus reduce the diesel flow to injectors.
Again speaking for myself, replacing these washers breathed new life into the TD5. Hope that helps?

Click to expand...

Yes i do have access to a code reader but I will have to pay a pretty penny for that!

No my pump is not noisy at all and no squealing either. And yes it does start the purge sequence with 5 pumps on the pedal with ignition on.

defcrazy said:

yes changing the injector seals and washers makes a diffrence if there bad . i had a disco 2 TD5 and all of a sudden it hard start the same way yours did , after checking the usual pump ,filters,lines . i did the seals and washers and you could see the washer was pited on the #1 injector and not sealing properly . new ones fitted and starts first time

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I think I would like to change these seals and washers.

Can you please give a link for these injector seals and copper washers, from where I can order them? If you have pictures of these please share as I don't even know what they are.

Thanks.

I had a similar problem to this on our disco.


Have you check to see if you have any excessive oil leak from the back of the engine?

or at least look under the engine and check if there is a big oil patch from the back of the engine.

Ours was the high pressure fuel regulator that was weeping and therefore needed to be changed. Now when you buy it it comes as a whole unit and over £100 I think, but in fact its the rubber O ring that fails. Size of a two pence piece. If I was to replace it again I would take it out match the o ring and put it back. Its only held on by a circlip but you would need to take the whole unit. Easy enough to do.

My symptoms were similar to yours took longer to start and really struggling to pull.

Also have you checked your battery!

I got mine from Britpart, Essex UK. If you click on the link you should get pics of all the items involved, but of course you only need the Copper washers and the oil seals. The part numbers are ERR6417 (5 off) & ERR7004 (5 off). Go for the (G) genuine options, about £25 + Vat.

Britcar (UK) Ltd > Your Search Results

In terms of the job itself, very straightforward. There are some pitfalls you have to be aware of, but if you want I can give you a blow by blow account of the Injector washer and "O" ring swap. The job would take about a couple of hours.

I used to have a tappet cover gasket leak but then I replaced it and cleaned all all the oil well as much as I could.

I don't get any patches on the floor but there is oil on the back of the engine which I think is from the tappet cover gasket. If fuel was to leak I'm sure it would drip onto the floor and stink which it doesn't.

But many thanks for the fuel regulator info that helps a great deal and I was actually scared about it cuz i know at some point it will leak and I will have to spend decent money to replace it now I know what to do! Same goes for the fuel cooler I knew I will have to replace it when it leaks and then it did leak, I checked and a new one costed 200 quid so then I found out through forums that only the O rings stop sealing so I replaced them and it was as good as new!

DerekT said:

I got mine from Britpart, Essex UK. If you click on the link you should get pics of all the items involved, but of course you only need the Copper washers and the oil seals. The part numbers are ERR6417 (5 off) & ERR7004 (5 off). Go for the (G) genuine options, about £25 + Vat.

Britcar (UK) Ltd > Your Search Results

In terms of the job itself, very straightforward. There are some pitfalls you have to be aware of, but if you want I can give you a blow by blow account of the Injector washer and "O" ring swap. The job would take about a couple of hours.

Click to expand...

Right, yes I would love to have a how-to on this, I want to do it my self.
Will I have to replace the bolts holding the injectors in place? As I understand some bolts are the stretch type and need to be replaced once undone.
And what are ERR 6761? Will I have to replace those too? And what about NYX100080? Are there any other small parts which should be replaced once dismantled?

Wanagetmuddy said:

I had a similar problem to this on our disco.


Have you check to see if you have any excessive oil leak from the back of the engine?

or at least look under the engine and check if there is a big oil patch from the back of the engine.

Ours was the high pressure fuel regulator that was weeping and therefore needed to be changed. Now when you buy it it comes as a whole unit and over £100 I think, but in fact its the rubber O ring that fails. Size of a two pence piece. If I was to replace it again I would take it out match the o ring and put it back. Its only held on by a circlip but you would need to take the whole unit. Easy enough to do.

My symptoms were similar to yours took longer to start and really struggling to pull.

Also have you checked your battery!

Click to expand...

Was the fuel regulator O ring a regular O ring or a high pressure/temperature Viton O ring?

Will get back to you with how to do.., but in the meantime, the other "O" ring ERR 6761, cant be sure but think it may be the one that goes on the fuel Pressure Regulator filter. Either way not part of the injector seal job. The other part is the larger ring that seals the injector wiring harness plug to the cylinder block. Have you renewed the harness recently? if so, no need to replace this. As for the injector retaining clamp bolts, manual says nothing about replacing these, just gives you the torque setting for them.

DerekT said:

Will get back to you with how to do.., but in the meantime, the other "O" ring ERR 6761, cant be sure but think it may be the one that goes on the fuel Pressure Regulator filter. Either way not part of the injector seal job. The other part is the larger ring that seals the injector wiring harness plug to the cylinder block. Have you renewed the harness recently? if so, no need to replace this. As for the injector retaining clamp bolts, manual says nothing about replacing these, just gives you the torque setting for them.

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Okay I will be waiting! Fuel pressure regulator has a filter? Does that need to be cleaned/replaced?

No I have never replaced the injector wiring harness, I do keep checking it for oil every year but never find any. If I understand correctly this issue was found in vehicle before 2001 and it was resolved in later vehicles?
Please do mention all the torque fiqures for all bolts for this job. Thanks a bunch!

Raider td5 said:

Was the fuel regulator O ring a regular O ring or a high pressure/temperature Viton O ring?

Click to expand...

Couldnt comment on the Viton O ring but I know that Land rover dont sell on its own but the full unit. A bit of a rip off.

If I had to do it again I would find an o ring the same size and use that and keep an eye on it.

Raider, yes the FPR has a filter. It does not come out as part of the FPR, it is tucked into the cylinder head behind that rubber "0" ring. I checked mine but was quite clean.
Re the injector washer change "how to" here goes: I do not claim any originality for this, mostly from threads on this forum and my own experience while doing it.
1. Remove accoustic cover - 3 bolts
2. Remove fan cowl -2 Philips screws either end
3. Ideally remove viscous fan, but can be done with it in situ
4. Unclip breather pipe and remove injector rocker cover (many bolts!)
5. Unclip injector wiring harness from each injector (push in arched bit of spring to release or just pull clips out with pointed pliers)
6. Unplug harness connector at front end of cylinder head
7. Remove harness plug (this is where the large "O" ring seal is located)
8. Undo all injector locknuts and screws to take tension of all springs. (take care not to lose any of the lock nuts like I did!)
9. Undo rocker shaft bolts and lift out shaft
10. Undo injector clamp bolts
11. Remove injectors. As ever this can require a special LR tool, but I used the short end of an allen key with a right angle, placed under the body of the injector, (not the solenoid body) and levered it out. The key thing here is to extract with a straight pull and not to twist it out. (Other threads have suggested turning the engine over with the clamps partially undone and using the compression to dislodge the injectors, but have not tried this).
12. Once you have the first injector out, there are two things to note. Firstly the injectors must go back in the pot the came out of. There are minor differences in mechanical and electrical tolerances that are programmed to ECU. Any re-arrangement will require the parameters to be changed by dealer diagnostics. Secondly is cleanliness. Be very careful to ensure the injector seat on the cylinder head is clean and free from deposits. To this end it is preferable that you do the injectors one at a time to ensure no dirt ingress while you are working on others.
13. Remove and inspect copper washer and "0" ring. Clean up injectors as best you can. Do not wire brush, but clean gently. Shifty recommends using oven cleaner for this!
14. Replace copper washer and "0" ring, smear ring with a little oil then re-insert without twisting with a straight push until injector fully into seat. Refit clamp ensuring it sits on the dowel properly and torque to 32nm or 24 ft/lb.
15. Repeat with remaining injectors. Note you will have to turn the engine manually, (socket on the crank pulley) to move injector cams out of the way.
16. Once all back and clamped up, replace the rocker shaft. (No specific torque figures for these bolts)
17. Rotate engine until cam at its highest lift point, screw adjuster down until it bottoms out, back off one turn, then lock the nut at that. Repeat for each injector.
18. Turn engine over manually a couple of times to ensure no injector is fouling a piston
19. Replace wiring harness, plug in injectors and main connector plug, replace cover etc job done!

Any errors or omissions will no doubt be corrected by others! Good Luck, let us know how it went!