1997 300Tdi EDC Hot Starting Fault

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T

Taza

Member
Posts
57
I have a 1997 Manual 300 TDI With EDC
Engine starts first time when cold even when left for days.
Problem is starting Engine after I have stopped (say to nip in to pay fuel bill)
Unlock car Engine turns over fine but will not start.
Wait 10 mins Engine starts and runs fine.

Things I have checked and done so far.(When Engine is hot)
When Engine won't start I have put foot on pedal still won't start.
When Engine won't start removed Coolant sensor plug still won't start.
When cold there is 5v going to the coolant sensor.
Spent 2 hours ripping out the dash to try and find a spider that wasn't there,

Things I have found
When it hot and won't start I undone number 4 injector and there was no fuel coming out.
The injector pump is the EDC type it has 3 wires going into the stop solenoid, Black box on the side.

Any advice much appreciated

Cheers

Taza






​
 
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Does it smoke from the exhaust when you try to start it?

If you say there's no fuel showing at an injector it is possible the problem is a slow speed and hot FUEL supply problem, possibly due to a little air getting into the injection pump and into the inside vane pump and right up to the high pressure pumping plungers. While the engine is running it can cope with a very small amount of air in the fuel as the injection pump can self bleed to a degree, as the fuel goes sloshing through the pump and out the other end, but then you stop it. Starter speed is so slow it can't hoick up the injection pressures highj enough or at all --- NO GO. After sitting a while the trapped air leaks out into the main body of the pump as fuel behind shoves it. Engine goes.

Check your filter head. Is it a self bleeding type? If it is, I bet the self-bleeding hole is blocked. Clear it and all should be well.

CharlesY
 
Hi Charles
On top of the filter it has got a bleed screw,anything else you won't me to check.

Thanks

Taza
 
Taza said:
Hi Charles
On top of the filter it has got a bleed screw,anything else you won't me to check.

Thanks

Taza
Click to expand...

You mean an actual bleed screw?
What a pest.
Better is a self-bleeder. But bleed it gently anyway and see if any air comes out. You'll be able to tell.

What you can do next is this .... take the fuel delivery pipe off the injection pump. It should be the pipe from the filterhead to the back end of the injection pump.

Get a plastic bottle - a clear one you can see into, and shove the end of the fuel pipe right to the bottom. Now start pumping the lift pump by hand. Remember you may need to turn the engine a little so the pump lever inside is "off the cam".

As soon as there's enough fuel in the bottle, keep the end of the pipe submerged, and watch carefully as the fuel flows out. There may be some swirling, but there should be NO AIR BUBBLES AT ALL coming out that pipe.

If there are air bubbles that don't stop coming there is probably an air leak INWARDS on the SUCTION side -- between the tank and the lift pump, though sometimes the diaphragm of the lift pump can leak and let air in.

However, here's another thing to try next time you stop her hot, and she wont start - lift the bonnet and yank the lift pump lever 20 times, then dive inside and see if she fires up now. You may help the situation by shoving some fuel through. If this helps it is almost certain you have an airleak INWARDS somewhere on the suction side.

Keep us informed.
 
Hi Charles
As soon as there's enough fuel in the bottle, keep the end of the pipe submerged, and watch carefully as the fuel flows out. There may be some swirling, but there should be NO AIR BUBBLES AT ALL coming out that pipe.

When the above happens should I still be pumping or just watching

Cheers

Taza
 
Taza said:
Hi Charles
As soon as there's enough fuel in the bottle, keep the end of the pipe submerged, and watch carefully as the fuel flows out. There may be some swirling, but there should be NO AIR BUBBLES AT ALL coming out that pipe.

When the above happens should I still be pumping or just watching

Cheers

Taza
Click to expand...

Keep pumping. Get someone to help if need be.
You want to see the fuel flow from the pipe into the bottle. Question is this - YES or NO .... is there AIR coming out that pipe along with the fuel?

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
Keep pumping. Get someone to help if need be.
You want to see the fuel flow from the pipe into the bottle. Question is this - YES or NO .... is there AIR coming out that pipe along with the fuel?

CharlesY
Click to expand...

I should have added that if there IS air coming out with the fuel, that may be the problem, and the solutions are the standard ones - stop air getting in, and help the system to bleed it out.

If there is NO air coming out with the fuel the problem surely lies inside the pump itself. That isn't so easy to diagnose and fix.

CharlesY
 
Hi Charles
Just been for a run and it runs really well, switched of engine and it would not start, jumped out operated lift pump 20 times still would not start.
One thing I noticed did not feel much resistance when pumping,never pumped lift pump before so not sure what it should feel like.

Will try disconnecting fuel line into a glass jar tomorrow.

Charles
When I switch engine off,I have tried starting straight away and it still won't start, Switch off switch on still won't start.

Saw a post on here with the same fault it turned out to be the black box that covers the DDS (Digital Diesel Shut-off valve),it has three wires going into it, any idea what they do, one will feed the stop solenoid what are the others for.

Cheers

Taza
 
Last edited:
Taza said:
Hi Charles
Just been for a run and it runs really well, switched of engine and it would not start, jumped out operated lift pump 20 times still would not start.
One thing I noticed did not feel much resistance when pumping,never pumped lift pump before so not sure what it should feel like.

You may need to jerk the engine on the starter to get the arm inside off the cam. It should feel like it's pumping - unless it is jiggered, but I think not.

Will try disconnecting fuel line into a glass jar tomorrow.

Charles
When I switch engine off,I have tried starting straight away and it still won't start, Switch off switch on still won't start.

Saw a post on here with the same fault it turned out to be the black box that covers the DDS (Digital Diesel Shut-off valve),it has three wires going into it, any idea what they do, one will feed the stop solenoid what are the others for.

I am beginning to fear the electronics are involved here.

So I suggest you get a length of wire with a Lucar female tag on one end, and a crocodile clip on the other that can reach from the fuel stop solenoid (Lucar tag) to the battery positive terminal.

When car stopped with HOT engine, don't try to start. Leap out, pull tag off stop solenoid, place on tag end of your wire, clip crock clip to battery positive, jump in and fire her up - with any luck!

Try that before faffing about with fuel pipes and bubbles. I bet it works.

I think it's called "hot wiring".

CharlesY
Click to expand...
 
Charles
Can't get to the solenoid its covered by a black box which has three wires going into it.

Taza
 
Taza said:
Charles
Can't get to the solenoid its covered by a black box which has three wires going into it.

Taza
Click to expand...

Bugger ... I bet that black box is secured with crazy screws.
I wonder if there's a 300 tdi expert following this thread.

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
But it has a sealed box over the stopper solenoid?

Someone must know how to get that thing off.

CharlesY
Click to expand...
Is that a key recognition circuit thingy? If so break it off and wire a live to the stop solenoid via the ign or a switch. That is if the bloody ECU will let you:rolleyes:
had to do that with my pug when the little computer thing failed on the pump.

Have you swapped the fuel pump relay over for a different one, it may not switch when hot
 
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Had a very similar situation with a volvo,did a fault code thing and it was an ECU problem...signals to the fuel pump relay all to cock.Any chance you can get to a scrapyard and find another ECU,or get a lend of one to see if it makes any difference?Where are you located?
 
CharlesY said:
But it has a sealed box over the stopper solenoid?

Someone must know how to get that thing off.

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Mine had that fault so I just ran a wire from the ignition, dont know what you are looking at but the stop solonoid is on the rear of the pump
 
The stop solenoid is under the black box, will have a go at removing it this weekend.

Cheers
 
Story so far.

After reading several post on different forums I decided to go for the black box (DDS) and check for supply to solenoid.

To remove the box firstly you have to some how remove the tamper proof screws, What I did was make a drill bush, 9.75 outside diameter and 6mm inside diameter this stops the drill from wondering to the side,

I drilled out the first screw no problem but to get the drill into position to drill the second screw out, I had to remove number four injector fuel pipe, so I unscrewed the nut on the injector then went for the nut on the injector pump and guess what it was loose and I mean loose.

So I thought this could be the problem all a long but still removed the second screw.Removed the black box and just let it hang there with all wire still connected.

Fitted injector pipe back on and secured all pipe fitting.Started engine and let it run until it was up to temperature, on the gauge about half way,switched engine off and back on and it started no problem let it run a bit longer switched off and on again no problem.

Could it of been the loose pipe if so why did I not see fuel spurting out,or could it of been sucking air in when I switched engine off.

Or could it of been the black box, have I disturbed something.

Will try again tomorrow night.

I would just like to say a big thanks for all the help of you guys.

Thanks

Taza
 
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