White smoke!!

hi toad, i used to have diesel mazda van that started to blow out white smoke, it turned out to be a crack in the head, whilst the engine is running hot pull up the oil filler cap slightly and if there is any smoke escaping then you could have the same problem and would probably explain why its not behaving as it should. hope this helps to at least confirm or eliminate a cause. good luck.

Kellymike said:

hi toad, i used to have diesel mazda van that started to blow out white smoke, it turned out to be a crack in the head, whilst the engine is running hot pull up the oil filler cap slightly and if there is any smoke escaping then you could have the same problem and would probably explain why its not behaving as it should. hope this helps to at least confirm or eliminate a cause. good luck.

Click to expand...

I will checkout what you suggest and get back to you. Thanks for the reply.

Kellymike

I have just taken the car out and got it up to temperature. With the engine just ticking over I then opened the oil filler cap and found no sign whatsoever of any smoke. I'm hoping this is a good sign!

I do have another 300 Tdi which is the same age, but has done 70,000 more miles. What I would say is the one that has the higher mileage also seems to be more powerful and quicker on take off. I'm starting to think turbo again, but the thing that bothers me is, does the turbo operate when you start the car from cold and if it was faulty would it cause it to miss on start up?

I must say that the car only smokes and misses on startup and when I find myself having to press the accelerator between accelerating and decelerating. Other than that once it is warm it ticks over lovely and apparently drives lovely. Its only the fact I have another one to compare it with that I know something isn't quite right.

Further to my problems with smoke. I have had a garage mechanic, one that I can trust, look at my car. He feels that the engine is tight and in good nick and feels that my problems are definitely fuel linked. Initially he suggested that I put a heavy dose of Redex diesel and injector cleaner into it. This I have now done and once the engine is up to temperature I no longer seem to have a problem with smoke. However, it still is starting really poorly and producing plenty of smoke. It will start without using the glowplugs, but I have to turn it over and over. For this reason I use the glowplugs.

This car runs beautifully once up to temperature and now without smoke so my next point of attack is the injectors. What I can't understand is why the injectors may be at fault when they seem to operate so well when the engine is hot.

Could the fuel lift pump maybe have something to do with my problems?

Toad said:

Further to my problems with smoke. I have had a garage mechanic, one that I can trust, look at my car. He feels that the engine is tight and in good nick and feels that my problems are definitely fuel linked. Initially he suggested that I put a heavy dose of Redex diesel and injector cleaner into it. This I have now done and once the engine is up to temperature I no longer seem to have a problem with smoke. However, it still is starting really poorly and producing plenty of smoke. It will start without using the glowplugs, but I have to turn it over and over. For this reason I use the glowplugs.

This car runs beautifully once up to temperature and now without smoke so my next point of attack is the injectors. What I can't understand is why the injectors may be at fault when they seem to operate so well when the engine is hot.

Could the fuel lift pump maybe have something to do with my problems?

Click to expand...

Re glowplugs, I use them all the time, I'm sure my two Discos WILL start, when warm, without them, but hey, they're there to aid starting so I use them!!

Moving onto a starting problem, Tdi 300 has a number of noted starting problems, to do with earthing of the starter motor, glowplugs and their circuitry as well as lift pump issues and filters.

1. Take out each glowplug in turn and whilst connected, get someone to turn them on while you watch. ATTENTION, they should get red hot - be prepared!! Once you've eliminated glowplugs, move onto:

2. Rig up a new temporary earth between the battery and the engine block, jump lead is good for this. Then try to start - if improved, your problem is a poor earth. If no improvement:

3. Buy from Paddocks etc a new lift pump, they're only about £15 or so and fit. If this doesn't improve starting:

4. Replace fuel filter and check and clean the fuel sedimentor.

Can't think of anything else right now.

Good luck

Dave

Toad said:

Further to my problems with smoke. I have had a garage mechanic, one that I can trust, look at my car. He feels that the engine is tight and in good nick and feels that my problems are definitely fuel linked. Initially he suggested that I put a heavy dose of Redex diesel and injector cleaner into it. This I have now done and once the engine is up to temperature I no longer seem to have a problem with smoke. However, it still is starting really poorly and producing plenty of smoke. It will start without using the glowplugs, but I have to turn it over and over. For this reason I use the glowplugs.

This car runs beautifully once up to temperature and now without smoke so my next point of attack is the injectors. What I can't understand is why the injectors may be at fault when they seem to operate so well when the engine is hot.

Could the fuel lift pump maybe have something to do with my problems?

Click to expand...

My first impression was that it had bent a push rod, low compression on a cylinder and a missfire giving the smoke.

White smoke is a low compression fault or late fuel delivery, once the engine is up to temp it is more capable of burning the fuel, but when cold it needs engine compression and the fuel sent in at the right time. send it in late and it does not have time to burn it.

Injector faults usually give lots of black smoke since when they fail they hose fuel in, just the same as a blocked air filter, lots of fuel but no air.

This fault happened suddenly if I remember rightly, sure your timing has not slipped a bit, belt ok, changed when it should have, or the injection pump is delivering the fuel late, is there a possibility the injection pump has come loose and moved. Or the pump is goosed.

I think you said that you had injectors, I guess you could fit them and see if it resolves it, but I doubt it.

Did you determine where the missfire was, one cylinder or all.

Try this, if the pump has not come loose, turn your injection pump, you may be able to remove this fault by advancing the fuel timing, if so then you need to look further to determine why the timing has become retarted, mark the pump first though so you can return it to the original position. That would be the timing belt or pump it's self, and I guess if it resolves it then you could drive it and see what happens. If it is that the timing belt is on the way out then a broken belt only bends a push rod or so at the worst, and if it's the pump then keep your fingers crossed and it might run for years with the injection timing adjusted. You should know the history of the belt service etc, so if it's within the service limits, it's the pump, "probably".

It's hard for me to diagnose the fault here but I hope these help.

david451 said:

My first impression was that it had bent a push rod, low compression on a cylinder and a missfire giving the smoke.

White smoke is a low compression fault or late fuel delivery, once the engine is up to temp it is more capable of burning the fuel, but when cold it needs engine compression and the fuel sent in at the right time. send it in late and it does not have time to burn it.

Injector faults usually give lots of black smoke since when they fail they hose fuel in, just the same as a blocked air filter, lots of fuel but no air.

This fault happened suddenly if I remember rightly, sure your timing has not slipped a bit, belt ok, changed when it should have, or the injection pump is delivering the fuel late, is there a possibility the injection pump has come loose and moved. Or the pump is goosed.

I think you said that you had injectors, I guess you could fit them and see if it resolves it, but I doubt it.

Did you determine where the missfire was, one cylinder or all.

Try this, if the pump has not come loose, turn your injection pump, you may be able to remove this fault by advancing the fuel timing, if so then you need to look further to determine why the timing has become retarted, mark the pump first though so you can return it to the original position. That would be the timing belt or pump it's self, and I guess if it resolves it then you could drive it and see what happens. If it is that the timing belt is on the way out then a broken belt only bends a push rod or so at the worst, and if it's the pump then keep your fingers crossed and it might run for years with the injection timing adjusted. You should know the history of the belt service etc, so if it's within the service limits, it's the pump, "probably".

It's hard for me to diagnose the fault here but I hope these help.

Click to expand...

Meant to say the three nuts hold the pump behind the timing casing, you can see them, two anyway, might have to slacken the injector pipes a bit first to get it to move. Don't slacken it too much though just enough to let it move. I think to advance it you need to move the top of the pump to the engine, but make sure you have marked it, preferable in two places, two marks are easier and more accurate to line up if you want to return it to the original place. You will hear and see a big difference in the performance of the engine, if you advance it too far the engine will become noisy and you will have to guage it for yourself, but you will do no harm, if it's chattering like hell just turn the pump back a bit, it's only the fuel timing you are adjusting.

Good luck.

I don't know if you can get a look at the belt through the plate on the front of the timing casing in front of the pump, might be able to see if it's worn to death, also there was a problem with that engine at a certain year where it shreds belts and you have to convert it to different pulleys.

The Biglad

Thanks for your input. I will go through your list, however, the fuel filter has already been replaced in the last couple of days and we attempted to drain the sedimenter. That as yet has not been done as we can't move the tap on the bottom and are wary of breaking it. If you have any suggestions on moving it I'd be grateful.

As far as starting goes, I can get it going, but it is only firing on 3 cylinders or maybe only 2.

The glowplugs are sparking well when I link a wire from the pos terminal on the battery to the top of each one in turn. I do realise though that just because they spark doesn't mean to say they are glowing.

I will take them off and be sure.

David451

Thanks again for your detailed notes. Since my last post I have unfortunately spotted smoke again when the engine was hot. I thought I had sorted that bit.

I am of course going to investigate all your suggestions, but will not be able to get down to it now until after Monday. Awful weather has been forecast up here!

It wouldn't surprise me to find your original diagnosis of valve problems turn out to be the case. Having said that I think I will attempt to go through all the other things you suggest looking at before I resign myself to the valves being damaged or out of sync. I'll get my pal to check the timing belt, although it was supposed to have been replaced 6000 miles ago.

I will of course let you all know my findings.

Toad said:

David451

Thanks again for your detailed notes. Since my last post I have unfortunately spotted smoke again when the engine was hot. I thought I had sorted that bit.

I am of course going to investigate all your suggestions, but will not be able to get down to it now until after Monday. Awful weather has been forecast up here!

It wouldn't surprise me to find your original diagnosis of valve problems turn out to be the case. Having said that I think I will attempt to go through all the other things you suggest looking at before I resign myself to the valves being damaged or out of sync. I'll get my pal to check the timing belt, although it was supposed to have been replaced 6000 miles ago.

I will of course let you all know my findings.

Click to expand...

Just want to rule something out here and it's been mentioned in one of the threads. During the trip you must have fuelled up, had you picked up bad fuel, and it's unlikely today, then it would have been apparent soon after i.e water in the fuel. If you travelled a fair distance after each fuel top up without problems then I doubt it but you would know how soon after the top up it happened.

Take off the fuel filter in the engine bay, it's a screw off job, get a jar and empty the contents into it and see if its full of water. Water normally shuts down the engine since it can't get past the filter but if you think you picked up bad fuel then this would rule it out. Fill up the filter before you refit it to prevent bleeding problems.

You can also take off the fuel line and run it in a can with good fuel to rule it out, a bit of ****ing about but I have done it in the past, we call it an iron lung. You might find the fuel a bit cloudy because they stick stuff in it to stop it freezing, but compare it with good fuel if your unsure.

As you have said it's fuel that's coming out off the exhaust, clouds of it, so it sounds like it's getting fuel ok. I know that some injection pumps had a device inside them to advance the timing under load, there is something on that pump with loads of wires on it and I wonder if it has lost it's feed or it's broke and keeping the pump retarded. Once you move the pump if it sorts it then it's another avenue to explore, but you could check the multi plug for corrosion.

I will speak to a friend next week to see how that pump works, but usually it's a replacement job. If the timing is out another avenue is the gear on the pump, I am not sure how it is secured to the pump but I guess if it moved a bit, well a million things to check isn't there and probably some smart arse will find a fuse blown or something.

Short of taking it to a garage it's a process of elimination, without spending loads of dosh.

David451

Yes you are right I did have to re-fuel en-route and infact filled it with nigh on £90 worth of diesel, so almost an entire tank. The problems with smoke were with me well before that though and are still with me now so I think that can be ruled out. The fuel filter was changed just 3 days ago so that is now good, but I couldn't get the sedimenter tap to open and was worried that if I gave it too much wellie I would break it.

I assume to check the valve condition it means major surgery? I keep thinking this is the line I should be following. The main reason for this is that I have another 300Tdi that has done the best part of 70k miles more and it seems more powerful and less noisy than this one. And it starts first time without using the glowplugs. And it has a cat whereas the one I'm having problems with doesn't.

Just scratching my head a bit now really, not sure quite which direction to head in for the best!

Toad said:

David451

Yes you are right I did have to re-fuel en-route and infact filled it with nigh on £90 worth of diesel, so almost an entire tank. The problems with smoke were with me well before that though and are still with me now so I think that can be ruled out. The fuel filter was changed just 3 days ago so that is now good, but I couldn't get the sedimenter tap to open and was worried that if I gave it too much wellie I would break it.

I assume to check the valve condition it means major surgery? I keep thinking this is the line I should be following. The main reason for this is that I have another 300Tdi that has done the best part of 70k miles more and it seems more powerful and less noisy than this one. And it starts first time without using the glowplugs. And it has a cat whereas the one I'm having problems with doesn't.

Just scratching my head a bit now really, not sure quite which direction to head in for the best!

Click to expand...

Perhaps a little gentle heat on the sedimenter, boiling water or so, but if it breaks it breaks, it's not going to be a fortune and I'm sure you must be able to get one from partco or some other aftermarket supplier. But leave it at the minute since you seem to be getting fuel, because your problem is worse at start up and idle, and you don't need to break this at the minute as well and give more problems to yourself.

It's unusual for an engine which was running fine to just suddenly go pop, particularilly so this one, usually it needs overheated or abused in some way.

I note from your notes that I think you mentioned that it started from going down a hill, did you by some chance over-rev it going down the gears. From my experience on other push rod engines this can bend the push rods.

I think you have to rule out these items before you go on and they are the simple no-cost ones.

It's easy to advance the timing on the fuel injection pump, and also easy to check the valve clearances, a bit of a bastard to turn the engine though, it's awkward to get to the crankshaft pulley but a few bashed and skint fingers later you will have achieved it. And it costs you nothing but time.

You did say that it was noisy, so take the rocker cover off, three bolts and run the engine. It will spatter a little bit of oil about as it's running but nothing to worry about, look at the rockers one side should be sitting on the valve springs but between them there is a little cap that the rocker runs on like a little bucket upside down about the size of a one pence. make sure they are all there and not broken up or fallen off. On the opposite side is the pushrods, they are like long thin sticks with a cup on one end and a ball on the other, the cup is at the top.

With the engine running watch these, as they go up and down they tend to rotate slightly but when they are bent it is very obvious on rotation that they are thus. Again you will see the rockers operating and see and hear if they are flapping about unusually. If the adjustment is well out it's not uncommon for the little caps to fall off on some engines.

These two tests will help identify pump timing issues and low compression on the valve side at least.

I note also that you have another vehicle, on turning it over with the key before it starts to fire how does it sound, does your engine turn easier like it was low on compression, or turn fast/slow like it had a low compresion on one cylinder.

David451

Well I managed to talk a local farmer into letting me use one of his byres to look at my motor. I started by looking at the injectors. I had both my Tdi's with me so that I could swap the good ones into the bad car. Unfortunately though I soon came to a halt because I couldn't get the injectors out. I undid the clamps and removed the pipes on the first injector in each car, but they just wouldn't budge in either car. I wasn't sure what to do about this and I didn't want to just plough in with a hammer!

I stood and studied both engines whilst running alongside each other and there is definitely an uneveness about the one I'm having problems with. The engine is rocking slightly whereas my old motor is rock steady.

I have also establised now that the faulty one seems to be missing when hot or cold. Even when it is hot I can put my foot down hard on the accelerator and it coughs and burps before it eventually revs up properly. My old Tdi revs up immediately with no hesitation. The faulty one also belches out what I am now told is blue smoke and smells heavily of diesel. Even on tickover there is a whisp of blue smoke and this heavy smell of fuel is evident.

I was just about to get the rocker cover off, but I was called away so I will have to look at that later.

As far as turning the injector pump goes I haven't drummed up the courage to tackle that just yet. I'm concerned that I will take on more than I can cope with and mess things up completely.

Toad said:

David451

Well I managed to talk a local farmer into letting me use one of his byres to look at my motor. I started by looking at the injectors. I had both my Tdi's with me so that I could swap the good ones into the bad car. Unfortunately though I soon came to a halt because I couldn't get the injectors out. I undid the clamps and removed the pipes on the first injector in each car, but they just wouldn't budge in either car. I wasn't sure what to do about this and I didn't want to just plough in with a hammer!

I stood and studied both engines whilst running alongside each other and there is definitely an uneveness about the one I'm having problems with. The engine is rocking slightly whereas my old motor is rock steady.

I have also establised now that the faulty one seems to be missing when hot or cold. Even when it is hot I can put my foot down hard on the accelerator and it coughs and burps before it eventually revs up properly. My old Tdi revs up immediately with no hesitation. The faulty one also belches out what I am now told is blue smoke and smells heavily of diesel. Even on tickover there is a whisp of blue smoke and this heavy smell of fuel is evident.

I was just about to get the rocker cover off, but I was called away so I will have to look at that later.

As far as turning the injector pump goes I haven't drummed up the courage to tackle that just yet. I'm concerned that I will take on more than I can cope with and mess things up completely.

Click to expand...

Sounds more like a cylinder is dead, try cracking off the pipes again and see if you can identify the one.

You can't go wrong with the pump, scribe a line or tipex it slacken it a tad and just turn it a bit. Were only talking about millimetres, try it both ways in case I am wrong and you will hear the difference.

But it sounds more like you have a dead cylinder, but try and identify it. when the pipes are cracked bring the revs up slightly and listen each time.

david451 said:

Sounds more like a cylinder is dead, try cracking off the pipes again and see if you can identify the one.

You can't go wrong with the pump, scribe a line or tipex it slacken it a tad and just turn it a bit. Were only talking about millimetres, try it both ways in case I am wrong and you will hear the difference.

But it sounds more like you have a dead cylinder, but try and identify it. when the pipes are cracked bring the revs up slightly and listen each time.

Click to expand...

Injectors can be difficult to get out, but most times they give in, a sliding hammer with the right end on it screws onto it and you punch it out, however a couple of levers and a gentle tap to get it moving, once it's off the seat it should come out, watch that there is not a copper washer stuck to it and you lose it, also make sure if there is one that you don't end up fitting it with two, one left in the head and one on the other injector.

If you had a nut from an injector pipe you could screw it onto it and either make up something to connect to it as a slider or a set of vice grips, get somebody to lever it and you tap it out at the same time.

Had a look at mine and with the rocker cover off it makes it easier, recon with a set of vice grips and a couple of levers it should come out.

david451 said:

Sounds more like a cylinder is dead, try cracking off the pipes again and see if you can identify the one.

You can't go wrong with the pump, scribe a line or tipex it slacken it a tad and just turn it a bit. Were only talking about millimetres, try it both ways in case I am wrong and you will hear the difference.

But it sounds more like you have a dead cylinder, but try and identify it. when the pipes are cracked bring the revs up slightly and listen each time.

Click to expand...

David451

CRACKED IT!

I just knew that if I carried out certain things from your replies I was bound to hit the right one eventually. It was down to adjusting the Injection pump.

When I loosened the 3 nuts on the rear side of the timing case and the 2 that are on the clamp at the back of the pump itself I found that the pump would hardly move at all. In fact it would only move a max of 2mm because the 3 bolts on which I loosened the nuts restricted its movement any more than that. I noticed some yellow paint marks where someone has obviously played round with this before. Well the only direction I could move it was to retard the timing by the 2mm. Having done that I linked all the injectors back up and tightened all the nuts that I had loosened and then for the moment of truth. Turned the key and it fired up 1st time immediately. I put my foot on the accelerator and bingo it revved up instantly with no hesitation.

I took it a run for 15mins or so and there is no sign of smoke and it is a different car. The acceleration it has is just unbelievable.

Good one David and thanks very much for your patience and detailed help.

Also thanks to everyone else that contributed, your help was very much appreciated.

Toad said:

David451

CRACKED IT!

I just knew that if I carried out certain things from your replies I was bound to hit the right one eventually. It was down to adjusting the Injection pump.

When I loosened the 3 nuts on the rear side of the timing case and the 2 that are on the clamp at the back of the pump itself I found that the pump would hardly move at all. In fact it would only move a max of 2mm because the 3 bolts on which I loosened the nuts restricted its movement any more than that. I noticed some yellow paint marks where someone has obviously played round with this before. Well the only direction I could move it was to retard the timing by the 2mm. Having done that I linked all the injectors back up and tightened all the nuts that I had loosened and then for the moment of truth. Turned the key and it fired up 1st time immediately. I put my foot on the accelerator and bingo it revved up instantly with no hesitation.

I took it a run for 15mins or so and there is no sign of smoke and it is a different car. The acceleration it has is just unbelievable.

Good one David and thanks very much for your patience and detailed help.

Also thanks to everyone else that contributed, your help was very much appreciated.

Click to expand...

So glad you got it sorted Mr Toad. And doubly glad my doom and gloom were misplaced. Came across a Sherpa last week that does exactly the same when cold - will try this fix!

Brilliant news Toad, well done, give yourself a big pat on the back !!!

PASTMASTER said:

So glad you got it sorted Mr Toad. And doubly glad my doom and gloom were misplaced. Came across a Sherpa last week that does exactly the same when cold - will try this fix!

Click to expand...

Glad it's ok now and I hope that it runs for a while, I would recon that moving the pump as I first thought "to the engine" is retarding it, and away is advanced. but remember something caused the pump to retard the timing in the first place.

Well done, not bad for a non mechanic, many would have just paid a fortune to get it sorted.

david451 said:

Glad it's ok now and I hope that it runs for a while, I would recon that moving the pump as I first thought "to the engine" is retarding it, and away is advanced. but remember something caused the pump to retard the timing in the first place.

Well done, not bad for a non mechanic, many would have just paid a fortune to get it sorted.

Click to expand...

Well David you were right about something causing the pump to retard. I am back to square one. Definitely blue smoke, it pours out when the car is cold and its missing again. It started again after I had to pull into quick moving traffic and had to give it some welly when the engine was cold and I approached an island a few hundered yards down the road, took my foot off the throttle and smoke just poured out of it. and the engine is now noisier as well.

I had the tappets checked today and they were as they should be apparently. I tried the injector pump again and this time it has not worked. I managed to get the sedimenter tap to shift and have drained that. The oil and water levels are still constant and there has been no need to top either of them up. Once the car is up to temperature the problems appears to disappear, but this morning I found that if I sit and gently press the throttle until it reaches 2000rpm, at this point the engine seems to start spluttering and smoke starts to appear. It starts missing.

It sounds like a knackered old tractor and I'm starting to lose heart a bit. If you have any further thoughts they would be gratefully received.