What swivels have I got?

Dr Strangeglove · Sep 13, 2021

I need to replace the swivel balls on my defender, but it is a bitsa so I need help on getting the correct ones.

The defender is a 93 model but it has a 300tdi fitted and disc brakes. The front axle has the thicker drive flanges an my alloys can't have the central caps fitted.

I will include some photos and hopefully you folks can let me know what swivel kit I need.

As always, many thanks for your help.

M

Dr Strangeglove · Sep 13, 2021

Oops, I seem to have made a mess of attaching the photos, but hopefully you can see what you need to see to help.

M

the_wolf · Sep 13, 2021

The swivel balls have never changed. From the very first 90 up to a 2016 Puma Defender they're exactly the same. Whether you fit Teflon balls or chromed balls is upto you

the_wolf · Sep 13, 2021

https://www.lrworkshop.com/blog/defender-replace-axle-swivel-balls-housing

miktdish · Sep 14, 2021

Althouigh oit pains me to say it ... Britpart
Do everything, the seals, the bearings and pins, new grease, wheel bearings and seals. About £250. Money well spent and will last for years.

Dr Strangeglove · Sep 14, 2021

the_wolf said:
The swivel balls have never changed. From the very first 90 up to a 2016 Puma Defender they're exactly the same. Whether you fit Teflon balls or chromed balls is upto you

AHH, this is confusing me then as I am seeing two kits. The first kit is DA3167 and says from 1983 to 1993 and the second kit is DA3178 and says from 1993 to 1998 - both sets non ABS by the way.

I thought there was a difference in bearings or bushes, but I really ain't an expert, hence the question. I have tried looking at the axle for a serial number, but that has long since disappeared so I can't use that as a reference.

Oh b****cks, I have just looked again and if this is a discovery 1 axle it could be kit DA3164 or DA3165!!!

mick 1986 · Sep 14, 2021

the_wolf said:
The swivel balls have never changed. From the very first 90 up to a 2016 Puma Defender they're exactly the same. Whether you fit Teflon balls or chromed balls is upto you

That’s wrong. There 2 different type of swivel ball, one uses a bearing top and bottom, the other uses a railko bush on the top and bearing on the bottom.

mick 1986 · Sep 14, 2021

Dr Strangeglove said:
AHH, this is confusing me then as I am seeing two kits. The first kit is DA3167 and says from 1983 to 1993 and the second kit is DA3178 and says from 1993 to 1998 - both sets non ABS by the way.

I thought there was a difference in bearings or bushes, but I really ain't an expert, hence the question. I have tried looking at the axle for a serial number, but that has long since disappeared so I can't use that as a reference.

Oh b****cks, I have just looked again and if this is a discovery 1 axle it could be kit DA3164 or DA3165!!!

There are 2 types of swivel ball. It’s easy enough to find out which one you have, just remove the top “bearing” housing and see what’s fitted. If it’s a railko bush, then order the number for that type of ball, if it’s a bearing, order that type. I’m not sure why the discovery ones are different, possibly for ABS?

the_wolf · Sep 14, 2021

mick 1986 said:
That’s wrong. There 2 different type of swivel ball, one uses a bearing top and bottom, the other uses a railko bush on the top and bearing on the bottom.

My apologies you're right. I think the older ones had the railko bushes before changing to the bearings

meego · Sep 14, 2021

Are the actual swivel balls not the same though. The railko bush for earlier model and tapered bearing seat for later model aren’t part of the ball and are pressed in.??

Turboman · Sep 14, 2021

meego said:
Are the actual swivel balls not the same though. The railko bush for earlier model and tapered bearing seat for later model aren’t part of the ball and are pressed in.??

That is what I thought.

Not 100% about defenders, but on a Series, the bearings can be different, but the balls are the same.

mick 1986 · Sep 14, 2021

meego said:
Are the actual swivel balls not the same though. The railko bush for earlier model and tapered bearing seat for later model aren’t part of the ball and are pressed in.??

I think the ball itself is the same, it’s just the seat for the bush and bearing that is different. I don’t think you can remove them and swap them.

The bearing mount has the bottom machined out, so the swivel oil/grease can get up to the bearing and lubricate it. The railko bush doesn’t have this and should be lined when first fitted.

Turboman · Sep 14, 2021

mick 1986 said:
I think the ball itself is the same, it’s just the seat for the bush and bearing that is different. I don’t think you can remove them and swap them.

The bearing mount has the bottom machined out, so the swivel oil/grease can get up to the bearing and lubricate it. The railko bush doesn’t have this and should be lined when first fitted.

Railko bush has holes on the outside, so grease that is flung up by the CV joint can go in.
But I still think putting some grease inside first is a good thing.

tottot · Sep 14, 2021

Plus one on the above, when new the bearing material in the bush is often rather dry. I give them a soak over night in some oil before fitting.
Fit new brake pipes, those end fittings are very crusty.

Turboman · Sep 14, 2021

tottot said:
Plus one on the above, when new the bearing material in the bush is often rather dry. I give them a soak over night in some oil before fitting.
Fit new brake pipes, those end fittings are very crusty.

Springs and spring seats aren't in the first flush of youth either.

meego · Sep 14, 2021

Turboman said:
Railko bush has holes on the outside, so grease that is flung up by the CV joint can go in.
But I still think putting some grease inside first is a good thing.

+1 on that. There is a small hole in the bottom of the bush and liner. Lrcat lists one swivel ball type and two different swivel housings. The housing in the OP’s photos is definitely the Railko bush type as the swivel seal retaining ring has the square section at the top. The later version (with top bearing) is just a ring. Like these.

Turboman · Sep 14, 2021

meego said:
+1 on that. There is a small hole in the bottom of the bush and liner. Lrcat lists one swivel ball type and two different swivel housings. The housing in the OP’s photos is definitely the Railko bush type as the swivel seal retaining ring has the square section at the top. The later version (with top bearing) is just a ring. Like these.
View attachment 247996
View attachment 247997

Land Rover do make me laugh.

Series started with top bearings, but they were found to be rubbish, so they went over to Railko bushes, which were fitted for a long time, well into coil spring model production, and then they decided to go back to bearings.

Makes me wonder whether in fact it is all about what parts they could actually get!

meego · Sep 14, 2021

Turboman said:
Land Rover do make me laugh.

Series started with top bearings, but they were found to be rubbish, so they went over to Railko bushes, which were fitted for a long time, well into coil spring model production, and then they decided to go back to bearings.

Makes me wonder whether in fact it is all about what parts they could actually get!

I do sometimes wonder what goes through LR designers heads. Especially the new ones

When working on mine, I often try and improve on the existing design where it’s obviously been cost that’s been foremost.
I’m in the middle of rebuilding my swivels on my 32 year old 90, and apart from the seal leaking a bit they are in reasonable condition. The Railko pin and bush has only slight play in it, so I would say it’s a pretty good set up. Why change back to bearings I don’t know ??

mick 1986 · Sep 14, 2021

I have just had a look and found 2 part numbers, but I’m guessing there should be 3.
The first one is listed as 1983-1993. FRC2644 I think this one is the one the OP needs.
The second is listed as 1994 - 2006 NON ABS.
FRC7065 I’m guessing there should also be a part number for 1994 - 2006 ABS, but I don’t have time to look that one up.

If the swivel balls were the same for the railko bush and bearings, why does Land Rover list 2 part numbers for them?

meego · Sep 14, 2021

mick 1986 said:
I have just had a look and found 2 part numbers, but I’m guessing there should be 3.
The first one is listed as 1983-1993. FRC2644 I think this one is the one the OP needs.
The second is listed as 1994 - 2006 NON ABS.
FRC7065 I’m guessing there should also be a part number for 1994 - 2006 ABS, but I don’t have time to look that one up.

If the swivel balls were the same for the railko bush and bearings, why does Land Rover list 2 part numbers for them?

Good point. A few different opinions on this one and It will be interesting to see what the answer is. I hope the OP lets us know.

What swivels have I got?

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