Freelander 2 (LR2) What’s wrong with my landy :’(

Hey everyone!

In May, I lost acceleration, pulled over and stopped and then the engine wouldn’t start. AA found that no fuel was making it to the filter but the pump appeared to be working - crank sensor was replaced and resolved the issue.

Last Monday, the exact same thing happened again. AA could find no cause (although faults were showing on the OBD - pic attached as this one detailed them, last guy didn’t). But the end result was that no fuel was making it to the filter.

Garage found it to be the (non LR brand) crank sensor, so my dealership ordered the real deal (under warranty thank god!). On its test drive yesterday, it cut out and got stranded for a few hours until they could recover it.

Now, with them shut till Monday I’m driving myself nuts wondering/wanting more knowledge on what could be wrong with it (after clearing OBD and rechecking the ONLY fault was the cps). So if anyone has theories I’d really love to hear them please

Since it broke down this time I’ve been trying to get them look deeper as I don’t think even a knock off cps would only last 2 months and other garages I’ve spoken to have said the faulty cps shouldn’t prevent fuel making it to the engine... ‍

It’s a 2008 freelander 2, Td4 diesel automatic.

p.s. it is booked in for a full inspection with a 4x4 specialist at my expense around the end of this month as the warranty will only look at/fix what they can see - which I get. But I’m sick of breaking down!

There's clearly an issue, but the fuel thing is a red herring.
The TD4 uses a simple mechanical pump (it's part of the HP pump) to suck fuel from the tank, through the filter, before it's past to the high pressure pump.

If crank sensors keep falling, then it's potential possible that the ECM is supplying more than the correct sensor voltage, which would cause the sensors to fail quickly. This needs checking before any more sensors are fitted. However it could be just bad luck, and another replacement sensor might fix the issue.

Nodge68 said:

There's clearly an issue, but the fuel thing is a red herring.
The TD4 uses a simple mechanical pump (it's part of the HP pump) to suck fuel from the tank, through the filter, before it's past to the high pressure pump.

If crank sensors keep falling, then it's potential possible that the ECM is supplying more than the correct sensor voltage, which would cause the sensors to fail quickly. This needs checking before any more sensors are fitted. However it could be just bad luck, and another replacement sensor might fix the issue.

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they attempted another cps before buying the genuine LR one and the car wouldn’t even start.

with the genuine one it started but cut out after 8 mins driving. On the one time I spoke to the garage working on it (they’re busy and want my dealership who’s been handling it to keep me updated), I mentioned looking for something causing the sensor to fail, they said “the computer only shows the crank sensor so that’s what we need to fix” or something to that effect.

Surely OBD can’t see EVERYTHING? I’m a computer nerd and I know that hardware is fallible and the computer can’t tell me anything close to as much as actually taking it apart can...

Sensor reference voltage low, if it was low then the readings from sensors would be erratic.

Oh and just an addon to the main post, the car has shown no warning lights at any point in any of this.

Though on the most recent one, I did see white smoke coming out of the passenger vent about 5 mins before I stopped/couldn’t re-start. But it is not known if it is related or if my heating needs looking at (heat and a/c were off).

Gunna be glad to get an outsider/LR experts assessment of the car when this is over and take anything covered under the warranty back to be dealt with.

I don’t like not understanding my car though, so please, don’t be short on detail with theories, I want to understand exactly what is/could be going on and how it works

(Biologist by trade )

J_D said:

Sensor reference voltage low, if it was low then the readings from sensors would be erratic.

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Once the errors were cleared, apparently the only one remaining was the cps.

There are a few reports of faulty wiring to the CPS, so I'm guessing it's possible that the wiring is giving the CPS power after it's been disturbed, but failing again shortly afterwards.
It sounds like a more in depth investigation is needed, rather than simply relying on the diagnostics.
If LR have looked at it, then they should be using SDD, which is more in depth than OBD2 diagnostics.

I'd be measuring the power to the CPS, to check that power to it is within spec.

Nodge68 said:

There are a few reports of faulty wiring to the CPS, so I'm guessing it's possible that the wiring is giving the CPS power after it's been disturbed, but failing again shortly afterwards.
It sounds like a more in depth investigation is needed, rather than simply relying on the diagnostics.
If LR have looked at it, then they should be using SDD, which is more in depth than OBD2 diagnostics.

I'd be measuring the power to the CPS, to check that power to it is within spec.

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Yeah sadly I’m reliant on my dealerships chosen garage who seemed to want to check nothing but the OBD. I swear if they try and pull the ‘faulty cps’ line I might just lose it lol. No way all 4 cps that have been in the car since May are faulty.

I’ve been asking them to actually LOOK for a cause since this break down (hence booking my own check up). They’re not going to have much choice now.

But the downside to my dealership paying for it is that my innate need to understand what is wrong and how exactly it works is going stir crazy, like a fish swimming around trying to catch food lol

Can you explain why the fuel was a red herring? I tried reading up on how engines/fuel systems work but it wasn’t really satisfying the questions I had lol.

P.S - first replacement (after market) cps lasted 2 months before failure. New, genuine one lasted 8 minutes which I do find confusing.

Madog88 said:

Can you explain why the fuel was a red herring? I tried reading up on how engines/fuel systems work but it wasn’t really satisfying the questions I had lol.

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Because the CPS has absolutely nothing to do with the fuel delivery to the high pressure fuel pump. The fuel on this engine is sucked up from the tank by an engine driven lift pump, which is part of the HP pump assembly.
As fuel is sucked up hill from the tank to the pump, when a filter line is disconnected, the fuel in that line simply returns to the tank, giving the impression that there's no fuel being delivered.
A lot modern diesel engines use an electric pump in the tank, which pumps fuel to the engine driven HP pump, but not the PSA DW12 engine in the FL2. This is a constant source of confusion for some technicians/fitters/mechanics (deleted as appropriate), if they're unfamiliar with the design.

Madog88 said:

P.S - first replacement (after market) cps lasted 2 months before failure. New, genuine one lasted 8 minutes which I do find confusing.

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I suspect it's a wiring issue, which could be getting worse.

Nodge68 said:

Because the CPS has absolutely nothing to do with the fuel delivery to the high pressure fuel pump. The fuel on this engine is sucked up from the tank by an engine driven lift pump, which is part of the HP pump assembly.
As fuel is sucked up hill from the tank to the pump, when a filter line is disconnected, the fuel in that line simply returns to the tank, giving the impression that there's no fuel being delivered.
A lot modern diesel engines use an electric pump in the tank, which pumps fuel to the engine driven HP pump, but not the PSA DW12 engine in the FL2. This is a constant source of confusion for some technicians/fitters/mechanics (deleted as appropriate), if they're unfamiliar with the design.

I suspect it's a wiring issue, which could be getting worse.

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Would you mind explaining that a little more/providing reading. There was this odd moment during AA diagnostics when he disconnected the fuel line the engine began to start (for maybe 2 seconds). It was the only time, during any of his tests that there was any sign of life.

How does the freelander 2 fuel system work differently to most others? (Any links/reading would be appreciated so I can understand the mechanisms behind the FL2 design and the more ‘typical’ system). As every AA person who’s looked at it so far expected fuel to come out of the disconnected line.

Also, how would this relate to the cps? Or is it just that the cps (while we don’t know what else is wrong) shuts down the car and the fuel tests are irrelevant (I think that’s what you’re saying). If so, what should be tested?

Thinking about carrying a spare cps that the AA should be able to fit in a repeat of all this (also some of the stuff I read on this forum suggested it’s about the only fault that can fully stop the engine out of nowhere so it’s wise to keep a spare...?) but that’s been put on hold pending the results of this fresh issue.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain this all to me.

Madog88 said:

Would you mind explaining that a little more/providing reading.

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The Freelander 2 dealer service manual is available to download from here.
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/freelander-2-repair-and-maintenance-manual.247438/

Madog88 said:

How does the freelander 2 fuel system work differently to most others? (Any links/reading would be appreciated so I can understand the mechanisms behind the FL2 design and the more ‘typical’ system). As every AA person who’s looked at it so far expected fuel to come out of the disconnected line.

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The common rail fuel system on this engine isn't the same as most other common rail systems, in that it doesn't have or need a tank pump.
Like I said, the lift pump (what a diesel uses to 'lift' fuel from the tank to the HP pump, isn't in the tank. The DW12 uses an engine driven pump, which applies suction to the fuel supply line from the tank, which draws the fuel up, just as we can draw a drink up a straw. Take the straw analogy a step further. If we suck on a straw, to take a drink, when we stop sucking, the drink returns to the glass, unless the top of the straw is sealed at the top (creating a vacuum), which is exactly how the fuel system draws fuel from the tank.
There in a non return valve in the engine driven lift pump, which prevents fuel returning to the tank when the engine is off, however the moment the fuel supply line is disconnected, the vacuum is lost, and the fuel will slowly return from whence it came.

There is also a fuel return pipe from the HP pump, when bleeds unused fuel back to the tank, and this can eject fuel when the pipe is disconnected, but it only ejects the excess not required by the engine, and would only do that while the engine is turning, other than spilling what fuel is in the lines.

Madog88 said:

Also, how would this relate to the cps? Or is it just that the cps (while we don’t know what else is wrong) shuts down the car and the fuel tests are irrelevant (I think that’s what you’re saying). If so, what should be tested?

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Like I said previously, the CPS is only used by the ECM to determine engine timing (in conjunction with the Cam Position Sensor), so it can initiate the injectors.
If the ECM doesn't get a valid Crank or Cam sensor signal, then it simply won't start the injection cycle, so the engine just cranks over until timeout.

I think there is an issue with the crank sensor wiring, which is preventing the correct signal being generated, which would partially explain the current issue.

Madog88 said:

Thinking about carrying a spare cps that the AA should be able to fit in a repeat of all this (also some of the stuff I read on this forum suggested it’s about the only fault that can fully stop the engine out of nowhere so it’s wise to keep a spare...?) but that’s been put on hold pending the results of this fresh issue

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I have a working spare in my FL2 tool kit, and a 10mm spanner to fit it, as it only takes a couple of minutes to fit, even at the roadside.