Weatherproofing footwell floor patch

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R

Richard

Guest
My elderly Range Rover has grown holes in both front footwells.

That in the nearside is actually a series of perforations over about an
A5 sized area. I can't get to the underside because of the outrigger
just aft of the A post. I also doubt that I can clean off all of the
underseal adequately. I also do not want to cut the entire rotten area
out because I'm sure that I can't slip the repair plate into place in
such a way that there are no water traps - especially considering the
access problem.

What I propose doing is (MIG) welding a plate over the entire area and
onto sound metal on the inside - producing a rust trap that some car
manufacturers would be proud off - and then filling the void between the
new plate and existing (holely) floor with filler foam followed by
underseal.

Any thoughts/suggestions would be welcome.


Richard
 
"Richard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My elderly Range Rover has grown holes in both front footwells.
>
> That in the nearside is actually a series of perforations over about an A5
> sized area. I can't get to the underside because of the outrigger just
> aft of the A post. I also doubt that I can clean off all of the underseal
> adequately. I also do not want to cut the entire rotten area out because
> I'm sure that I can't slip the repair plate into place in such a way that
> there are no water traps - especially considering the access problem.
>
> What I propose doing is (MIG) welding a plate over the entire area and
> onto sound metal on the inside - producing a rust trap that some car
> manufacturers would be proud off - and then filling the void between the
> new plate and existing (holely) floor with filler foam followed by
> underseal.
>
> Any thoughts/suggestions would be welcome.
>
>
> Richard

You've identified it's not ideal but I'd be tempted it wallop seam sealer
over it then underseal it. the seal sealer will remain flexible and repell
most moisture. The underseal will make it look cosmetically normal again. A
brush over with oil twice a year will then keep the underseal moist and
prevent cracking.

It's alot of work to do the job properly but worth it in my opinion. The
only down side is that alot of repair pannels will have to be made yourself
as once you progress from the footwells then the likes of sills and lower
door pillars will also look scabby. Sills can be bought but I never found a
supplier of door pillar repairs other than for the early 3 door which need
alot of refabrication to make them fit a 5 door which has a totally
different profile.

Lee D.

www.lrproject.com


 
Lee_D wrote:

>>
>>Richard
>
>
> You've identified it's not ideal but I'd be tempted it wallop seam sealer
> over it then underseal it. the seal sealer will remain flexible and repell
> most moisture. The underseal will make it look cosmetically normal again. A
> brush over with oil twice a year will then keep the underseal moist and
> prevent cracking.
>
> It's alot of work to do the job properly but worth it in my opinion. The
> only down side is that alot of repair pannels will have to be made yourself
> as once you progress from the footwells then the likes of sills and lower
> door pillars will also look scabby. Sills can be bought but I never found a
> supplier of door pillar repairs other than for the early 3 door which need
> alot of refabrication to make them fit a 5 door which has a totally
> different profile.
>
> Lee D.
>
> www.lrproject.com
>
>

Hello Lee

Am I correct in understanding that you think it _might_ be OK to patch
the inside and then force (lots of) seal sealer into the holes in the
original floor, i.e. from the outside, followed by plenty of underseal?
What worries me is the void between the old floor and patch. I _know_
that I will not be able to completely fill that void with anything which
is applied by brush or other tool.

Regarding the actual welding; I'm going to use MIG, apart from
disconnecting the battery is there anything else necessary to protect
the electronics - its an 88 EFI model.

The overriding factor is, of course, how long I expect the vehicle to be
economically viable especially if Road Duty becomes stratospherically high.


Cheers

Richard
 
Patching in my opinion is false economy. You are leaving the rust there to
get a hold of the new metal and continue its crusade into the rest of the
vehicle. You have a MIG welder, cut the rust out completely, then put a
plate in to fill the hole. I always butt weld the plate, not overlap as this
will create a void in which the rust will start again. It only needs welding
on one side then and i usually do this from above where possible as MIG
welding from underneath is a pain at times. A little grinder works wonder if
a tidy job can't be achieved. Plenty of primer/topcoat for inside and a
rustproof covering for outside afterwards. I used to "patch" little pieces
with fibreglass or filler but when after a few years i braked hard only to
find the footwell tore away from the floor. I was lucky so now i don't cut
corners. As for making repair panels, cardboard cut to shape and size
usually works for me. For the more difficult/intricate panels, i build them
in sections or strips, making sure each piece is fully welded and the
correct shape before fitting the next. I always try to make the pieces
slightly oversize and trim to fit as precisley as poss, this saves any gaps
being filled and unneccesary welding.

Wolfie
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Patching in my opinion is false economy. You are leaving the rust there to
> get a hold of the new metal and continue its crusade into the rest of the
> vehicle. You have a MIG welder, cut the rust out completely, then put a
> plate in to fill the hole. I always butt weld the plate, not overlap as this
> will create a void in which the rust will start again. It only needs welding
> on one side then and i usually do this from above where possible as MIG
> welding from underneath is a pain at times. A little grinder works wonder if
> a tidy job can't be achieved. Plenty of primer/topcoat for inside and a
> rustproof covering for outside afterwards. I used to "patch" little pieces
> with fibreglass or filler but when after a few years i braked hard only to
> find the footwell tore away from the floor. I was lucky so now i don't cut
> corners. As for making repair panels, cardboard cut to shape and size
> usually works for me. For the more difficult/intricate panels, i build them
> in sections or strips, making sure each piece is fully welded and the
> correct shape before fitting the next. I always try to make the pieces
> slightly oversize and trim to fit as precisley as poss, this saves any gaps
> being filled and unneccesary welding.
>
> Wolfie

Thanks Wolfie

I must confess that I have never done any butt welding - especially
using the thin sheet that matches the RR floor, all my previous welding
has been on 4 mm + RSA used in the resurrection of my trailer - maybe
now is the time to start (after plenty of practice). I'm a very wary of
the plate falling out. I suppose that I could bolt a few substantial
straps across the hole (on the underside) to provide definate structural
security then make a patch to fill the whole - as you suggest - and
butt weld it in place. Does that sound truly awful or fainthearted?

Richard
 
Richard wrote:

> I must confess that I have never done any butt welding - especially
> using the thin sheet that matches the RR floor, all my previous welding
> has been on 4 mm + RSA used in the resurrection of my trailer - maybe
> now is the time to start (after plenty of practice). I'm a very wary of
> the plate falling out. I suppose that I could bolt a few substantial
> straps across the hole (on the underside) to provide definate structural
> security then make a patch to fill the whole - as you suggest - and
> butt weld it in place. Does that sound truly awful or fainthearted?

Sounds like you're making it overly complicated. Cut the rotten bit
out, cut a patch to fit into said hole nicely, offer it up and tack the
corners, then tack along each side every couple of inches to stop it
moving when heated. Now just weld the thing in, remembering of course
that where MIG/MAG welding is concerned, cleanliness is next to godliness.

--
EMB
 
I usually tack the corner first then one side, then the opposite side, then
work my way round at 2" intervals. When i weld, i weld between the 2" tacks
and then move to the opposite side, then back. Sometimes I use a pair of
mole grips with crab leg pincers (that's what i call them anyway :) ) to
hold the piece of metal in place but more often than not a simple tack is
ample. I don't usually have any probs with thin 2-3mm sheet, only with the
thicker stuff but then I am not a qualified welder. Some of the thicker
items i've welded have actually warped and i've had to apply heat to
straighten it again....

Wolfie
 
Lots of encouraging thoughts - thanks guys.

I guess that a little bit of marquetry practice using sheet steel and
butt welding practice is due.

Getting everything spotlessly clean is going to be a problem - I can't
get a clear run at the whole of the underside of the rotten area.


Any further thoughts regarding protecting the electronics - in additon
to battery disconnection?


Rgds

Richard


 
Just disconnect the battery and you will be fine. Also make sure there is a
good solid earth for your MIG clamp, clean and dry, preferably as close to
the job as possible. I usually clean a patch of metal near the job and spot
tack my clamp there. Good luck with the job, any probs don't hesitate to ask
cheers
Wolfie
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Just disconnect the battery and you will be fine. Also make sure there is a
> good solid earth for your MIG clamp, clean and dry, preferably as close to
> the job as possible. I usually clean a patch of metal near the job and spot
> tack my clamp there. Good luck with the job, any probs don't hesitate to ask
> cheers
> Wolfie
Thanks Wolfie

Rgds

Richard
 
You're welcome Richard. Also as its basically your first time doing this,
make sure you cover all interior cloth/wiring/underlay with damp cloths or
cardboard or remove it completely to save any stray sparks. You will find
that MIG does spark a lot with rusty or unclean metal and will cause a lot
of dust & mess so a good hoover is also advisable. Anti spatter spray is
another handy tool, cover welding nozzle and gas shield liberally with the
spray which will save any build up of particles in the nozzle which leads to
electrical shorting, also when covering work area with the spray, don't
overdo it as it will make a mess when mixed with the dust.

Cheers
Wolfie
 
On or around Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:20:13 GMT, [email protected] enlightened us
thusly:

>You're welcome Richard. Also as its basically your first time doing this,
>make sure you cover all interior cloth/wiring/underlay with damp cloths or
>cardboard or remove it completely to save any stray sparks. You will find
>that MIG does spark a lot with rusty or unclean metal and will cause a lot
>of dust & mess so a good hoover is also advisable. Anti spatter spray is
>another handy tool, cover welding nozzle and gas shield liberally with the
>spray which will save any build up of particles in the nozzle which leads to
>electrical shorting, also when covering work area with the spray, don't
>overdo it as it will make a mess when mixed with the dust.

someone told me that plain CO2 is better than the various mixtures for
welding rusty steel. I have noticed that the coogar 5 which I use spits and
farts a lot on rusty stuff, but whether it does so more than with plain CO2
I don't know.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
I use CO2 for mild steel, to weld dissimilar or different to mild steel
metals it is better to use either an Argon or Argon/CO2 mix also when the
metal to be repaired is galvanised. most car spares shops carry the small
bottles for little jobs but for an overhaul on a classic or the like, it is
actually cheaper to buy the valve and either rent a bottle from BOC or AP or
if your local landlord is friendly, he may "sell" you the gas as it is CO2
which is used in the pub trade.

Wolfie
 
On or around Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:22:43 GMT, [email protected] enlightened us
thusly:

>I use CO2 for mild steel, to weld dissimilar or different to mild steel
>metals it is better to use either an Argon or Argon/CO2 mix also when the
>metal to be repaired is galvanised. most car spares shops carry the small
>bottles for little jobs but for an overhaul on a classic or the like, it is
>actually cheaper to buy the valve and either rent a bottle from BOC or AP or
>if your local landlord is friendly, he may "sell" you the gas as it is CO2
>which is used in the pub trade.

pub gas is getting more problematic - the breweries are more keen these days
about where their bottles end up - but if you're on good terms with the
landlord you can sometimes work this.

hmmm. wonder what would happen if you got nitrogen instead?
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero" (sieze today, and put
as little trust as you can in tomorrow) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Odes, I.xi.8
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> hmmm. wonder what would happen if you got nitrogen instead?

Extreme weld porosity. Not only do all the experts say so, but being of
an enquiring (and cheap) mindset I tried it and confirmed this.


--
EMB
 
EMB wrote:
> Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>> hmmm. wonder what would happen if you got nitrogen instead?
>
> Extreme weld porosity. Not only do all the experts say so, but being of
> an enquiring (and cheap) mindset I tried it and confirmed this.
>
>

Sounds like when I first had a mig welder & used it outside on a windy day.
Ended up with sponge-like blobs everywhere.

These days I prefer gas welding with the DHC-2000 kit - it'll practically weld
two aluminium beer cans together. Could, if I was better at it, I'd say.

--
Karen

"Sometimes I think I have a Guardian Idiot - a little invisible spirit just
behind my shoulder, looking out for me ... only he's an imbecile" - Jake Stonebender
 
Duracell Bunny wrote:

> These days I prefer gas welding with the DHC-2000 kit - it'll
> practically weld two aluminium beer cans together. Could, if I was
> better at it, I'd say.

They're not bad... but the automotive repair industry here will not
recognise gas welding of any sort for structural repairs so mine doesn't
get a lot of use.

I prefer using my TIG, but i get funny looks when using it to weld exhausts.

--
EMB
 
TIG - reminds me of when the local village idiot bust his shiny stainless
exhaust and tried to weld it with his MIG, boasting that it was a weak spot
in the design and that he could weld it far better than the manufacturers
ever did. End of the week and a humble sheep trundled in with his massively
pepperpotted not so shiny stainless exhaust hehe. It took me the whole
afternoon to sort it for him and even though he would be cheaper buying a
new piece he still wanted it repaired. Guess what he was telling the local
yokels!, HE did the repair and it was far superior blahdeblah. I put this
one on the revenge list and if he ever ****es me off i'll squeal!
It beats me why chassis don't show up in stainless, it isn't a great deal
more expensive than mild steel and despite a little more work with the TIG,
they would certainly last longer, likewise for some parts. Obviously weight
would have to be considered but overall why aren't they made like this?

Wolfie
 
[email protected] wrote:
> TIG - reminds me of when the local village idiot bust his shiny stainless
> exhaust and tried to weld it with his MIG, boasting that it was a weak spot
> in the design and that he could weld it far better than the manufacturers
> ever did. End of the week and a humble sheep trundled in with his massively
> pepperpotted not so shiny stainless exhaust hehe. It took me the whole
> afternoon to sort it for him and even though he would be cheaper buying a
> new piece he still wanted it repaired. Guess what he was telling the local
> yokels!, HE did the repair and it was far superior blahdeblah. I put this
> one on the revenge list and if he ever ****es me off i'll squeal!
> It beats me why chassis don't show up in stainless, it isn't a great deal
> more expensive than mild steel and despite a little more work with the TIG,
> they would certainly last longer, likewise for some parts. Obviously weight
> would have to be considered but overall why aren't they made like this?

It work hardens and cracks like a bastard when subjected to stresses.

--
EMB
 
On or around Thu, 24 Aug 2006 23:49:09 +1200, EMB <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> It beats me why chassis don't show up in stainless, it isn't a great deal
>> more expensive than mild steel and despite a little more work with the TIG,
>> they would certainly last longer, likewise for some parts. Obviously weight
>> would have to be considered but overall why aren't they made like this?

DeLorean...
>
>It work hardens and cracks like a bastard when subjected to stresses.

and mild steel plus galvanising is still cheaper... mild steel plus paint
is cheaper yet.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
>> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!
 
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