V8 modification

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rovieman

Guest
Hi ! Is modifying/converting a V8 3.5 EFI engine into a 3.9 a matter of
overboring and changing pistons ? What about the electronics(Air Mass
Meter, ECU, throttle pot and plenum etc.,etc.)which are different ?
I kow it's cheaper to buy a complete V8 3.9 EFI engine, but shipping it
to Indonesia is next to impossible !
Thanks !

Hertriono Kartowisastro

 

"rovieman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi ! Is modifying/converting a V8 3.5 EFI engine into a 3.9 a matter of
> overboring and changing pistons ? What about the electronics(Air Mass
> Meter, ECU, throttle pot and plenum etc.,etc.)which are different ?
> I kow it's cheaper to buy a complete V8 3.9 EFI engine, but shipping it
> to Indonesia is next to impossible !
> Thanks !
>

Bore out original liners, insert new liners and finish bore/hone to size.
Needs a good engineering shop to do the work accurately enough to prevent
future problems. Fit 3.9 pistons. If it's a flapper type efi system, fit an
adjustable pressure regulator and set the fuel pressure to 45 psi, remove
airflow meter cover and adjust flapper spring tension until correct co can
be obtained with mixture screw roughly 3/4 turn out from fully in. If it's a
hotwire, I *think* it's just an ecu swap, and the correct tune resistor in
the harness, see rangerover factory book for resistor values etc.
Badger.


 


> Hi ! Is modifying/converting a V8 3.5 EFI engine into a 3.9 a matter of
> overboring and changing pistons ? What about the electronics(Air Mass
> Meter, ECU, throttle pot and plenum etc.,etc.)which are different ?
> I kow it's cheaper to buy a complete V8 3.9 EFI engine, but shipping it
> to Indonesia is next to impossible !


My thinking is more conservative (although I run a Discovery that started a
4.0 and now claims to be 4.6 and a 250 kW Defender) The 3.5 block is
weakened by the boring and also, bigger more does more for power than
torque.

I would rebuilt with 10.6 compressions Rover SD1 pistons, 3.9 cam from LR,
gasflow heads, profile valves, free flow exhaust and either turn up fuel
pressure or rechip. This setup will make more ponies than a 3.9 and will be
reliable.


 

"Aubrey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> My thinking is more conservative (although I run a Discovery that started
> a
> 4.0 and now claims to be 4.6 and a 250 kW Defender) The 3.5 block is
> weakened by the boring and also, bigger more does more for power than
> torque.


Hmmm... general rule of thumb is that more cubes = more torque, you need to
make considerable breathing improvements to get the power that the capacity
increase is theoretically capable of producing. That is why the 4.6 produces
good torque but low power for its size, compared to the 3.5, it is
restricted by breathing.

>
> I would rebuilt with 10.6 compressions Rover SD1 pistons, 3.9 cam from LR,
> gasflow heads, profile valves, free flow exhaust and either turn up fuel
> pressure or rechip. This setup will make more ponies than a 3.9 and will
> be
> reliable.


Turning up fuel pressure without recalibrating the rest of the system will
not give more power. See thread elsewhere about cam timings, do not be
fooled about 3.9 cams, it is a 3.5 SD1 cam advanced by 2 degrees!! You may
end up with slightly more power, but you will have a lot less torque at
lower rpm's - where a 4x4 needs it most!
BTW, what pistons would you use to achieve 10.6cr?? Highest cr SD1 piston
was 9.75, P6 was available with 10.5 but a weaker piston that doesn't lend
itself to higher power outputs, it also has thicker rings that cannot accept
higher revs reliably, higher revs being what your suggested mods would give
more power at.
Badger.



 
I need all the torque that I can have and will go for an overbore.
Are the outside diameter of the 3.5 and 3.9 liners different ? If the
original liners are thick enough to be overbored to accept the 3.9
pistons, why replace them ? There are some really good machine shops
overhere.
Can the bigger crankshaft of the 4.0 replace the original(for strenght
reasons)?
Your thoughts Badger and thanks,

Hertriono

Badger wrote:
> "rovieman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi ! Is modifying/converting a V8 3.5 EFI engine into a 3.9 a

matter of
> > overboring and changing pistons ? What about the electronics(Air

Mass
> > Meter, ECU, throttle pot and plenum etc.,etc.)which are different ?
> > I kow it's cheaper to buy a complete V8 3.9 EFI engine, but

shipping it
> > to Indonesia is next to impossible !
> > Thanks !
> >

> Bore out original liners, insert new liners and finish bore/hone to

size.
> Needs a good engineering shop to do the work accurately enough to

prevent
> future problems. Fit 3.9 pistons. If it's a flapper type efi system,

fit an
> adjustable pressure regulator and set the fuel pressure to 45 psi,

remove
> airflow meter cover and adjust flapper spring tension until correct

co can
> be obtained with mixture screw roughly 3/4 turn out from fully in. If

it's a
> hotwire, I *think* it's just an ecu swap, and the correct tune

resistor in
> the harness, see rangerover factory book for resistor values etc.
> Badger.


 

"rovieman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I need all the torque that I can have and will go for an overbore.
> Are the outside diameter of the 3.5 and 3.9 liners different ? If the
> original liners are thick enough to be overbored to accept the 3.9
> pistons, why replace them ? There are some really good machine shops
> overhere.


They are not thick enough to bore, you need the new liners. If you want
ultimate strength, get some "top-hat" style liners for better gasket
sealing.

> Can the bigger crankshaft of the 4.0 replace the original(for strenght
> reasons)?


Yes, if you line-bore the block with caps torqued down, but then you weaken
the caps, even if they have ARP studs holding them.
The std 3.5 / 3.9 crank isn't noted for being failure-prone, I'd leave it
alone other than balancing, and fit with ARP stud kit for reliability and
clamping strength.
Why not look at a big-capacity kit, such as 4.3 or 4.8 from real steel? As
for fuelling it, if sticking with EFI then I think you'd need to look at a
re-mapped version of the hot-wire setup from a 4.6 if going any bigger than
4.0.
If sticking to 3.9 with the modded flapper type efi system as per my earlier
suggestion, then fit a genuine 3.5 efi rangerover cam for max low rpm
torque. Do not let anyone fool you into a carb cam or a "this one fits all,
sir" camshaft. They ARE different. Get the compression up a bit would help,
but remember the bolt alignment for the inlets. i'd start with 10 bolt heads
and composite gaskets as a minimum spec, don't hog out the ports too much
either, smaller ports have a higher gas velocity at a given valve
lift/vacuum and so are better akin to producing low rpm torque, enhanced by
the gas velocity's scavenge effect. Relatively small-bore tubular headers
are a good help also, not big-bore as these reduce the gas velocity at lower
rpm's.
Badger.



 
Thanks Badger !
I'll look at all your suggestions, but who makes those 'big-capacity
kit' ?
When you said 'remapping', do you mean to the standard 3.9 ECU or the
GEM or even the THOR ? Or are they all the same ?

Hertriono

 
Thanks Badger !
I'll look at all your suggestions, but who makes those 'big-capacity
kit' ?
When you said 'remapping', do you mean to the standard 3.9 ECU or the
GEM or even the THOR ? Or are they all the same ?

Hertriono

 
Thanks Badger !
I'll look at all your suggestions, but who makes those 'big-capacity
kit' ?
When you said 'remapping', do you mean to the standard 3.9 ECU or the
GEM or even the THOR ? Or are they all the same ?

Hertriono

 

"rovieman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks Badger !
> I'll look at all your suggestions, but who makes those 'big-capacity
> kit' ?
> When you said 'remapping', do you mean to the standard 3.9 ECU or the
> GEM or even the THOR ? Or are they all the same ?
>

They are available from Real Steel who do 2 kits, 3.5 to 4.3, or 3.9 to 4.8.
01895 440505 is their telephone number, they are the supplier that I use
through personal preference. Rpi no doubt do them, J.E.Motors, Oblic
engineering (anyone know if oblic are still around??), V8 Developments and
no doubt many others, all in the UK.
When I referred to remapping, I meant the std 3.9/4.0 but the best man to
talk to re. that side of things would be Mark Adams, Pharmhouse marketing,
last email address I had for him was [email protected] , I think!
Badger.


 
On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:53:04 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>They are available from Real Steel who do 2 kits, 3.5 to 4.3, or 3.9 to 4.8.
>01895 440505 is their telephone number, they are the supplier that I use
>through personal preference.


ooh, tempting. Mind, I'd need a better gearbox. I doubt this one would
handle the extra go.

3.9 engine and box from a wrecker would be the best option, probably. Can
the 3.5 hotwire be adjusted to run a 3.9, or does it need a full remap?


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:53:04 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>They are available from Real Steel who do 2 kits, 3.5 to 4.3, or 3.9 to
>>4.8.
>>01895 440505 is their telephone number, they are the supplier that I use
>>through personal preference.

>
> ooh, tempting. Mind, I'd need a better gearbox. I doubt this one would
> handle the extra go.
>
> 3.9 engine and box from a wrecker would be the best option, probably. Can
> the 3.5 hotwire be adjusted to run a 3.9, or does it need a full remap?
>
>

Why not just fit the 3.9 ecu???


 
On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:15:49 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:53:04 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>They are available from Real Steel who do 2 kits, 3.5 to 4.3, or 3.9 to
>>>4.8.
>>>01895 440505 is their telephone number, they are the supplier that I use
>>>through personal preference.

>>
>> ooh, tempting. Mind, I'd need a better gearbox. I doubt this one would
>> handle the extra go.
>>
>> 3.9 engine and box from a wrecker would be the best option, probably. Can
>> the 3.5 hotwire be adjusted to run a 3.9, or does it need a full remap?
>>
>>

>Why not just fit the 3.9 ecu???
>


might not be available. Though of course would be the easy option if it
was.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world
of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without
boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994)
 
In <[email protected]> Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:15:49 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>
>>"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:53:04 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
>>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>>
>>>>They are available from Real Steel who do 2 kits, 3.5 to 4.3, or 3.9
>>>>to 4.8. 01895 440505 is their telephone number, they are the
>>>>supplier that I use through personal preference.
>>>
>>> ooh, tempting. Mind, I'd need a better gearbox. I doubt this one
>>> would handle the extra go.
>>>
>>> 3.9 engine and box from a wrecker would be the best option, probably.
>>> Can the 3.5 hotwire be adjusted to run a 3.9, or does it need a full
>>> remap?
>>>
>>>

>>Why not just fit the 3.9 ecu???
>>

>
> might not be available. Though of course would be the easy option if
> it was.


You could always go for a cheap aftermarket ECU... like this one:
http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/vehicles/bgs/megasquirt.php

more details at:
http://www.msefi.com/

That way you can adjust the fuelling map as often as you like and, if
you wanted to go the whole hog, the ignition timing too. It's also a
good way of getting rid of the air flow meter. Total cost of mine so far,
including buying two new LR ignition coil packs is 230 UKP. Fuelling
only would cost you around 120 quid. To my mind, having an ecu that you
can map yourself with free software that allows you to change fuel and
ignition in real time is the only way to go.

cheers

Dave W.
http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/
 
On or around 03 Feb 2005 22:54:07 GMT, Dave White
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>In <[email protected]> Austin Shackles wrote:
>> On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:15:49 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>
>>>"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On or around Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:53:04 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
>>>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>>>
>>>>>They are available from Real Steel who do 2 kits, 3.5 to 4.3, or 3.9
>>>>>to 4.8. 01895 440505 is their telephone number, they are the
>>>>>supplier that I use through personal preference.
>>>>
>>>> ooh, tempting. Mind, I'd need a better gearbox. I doubt this one
>>>> would handle the extra go.
>>>>
>>>> 3.9 engine and box from a wrecker would be the best option, probably.
>>>> Can the 3.5 hotwire be adjusted to run a 3.9, or does it need a full
>>>> remap?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Why not just fit the 3.9 ecu???
>>>

>>
>> might not be available. Though of course would be the easy option if
>> it was.

>
>You could always go for a cheap aftermarket ECU... like this one:
>http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/vehicles/bgs/megasquirt.php
>
>more details at:
>http://www.msefi.com/
>
>That way you can adjust the fuelling map as often as you like and, if
>you wanted to go the whole hog, the ignition timing too. It's also a
>good way of getting rid of the air flow meter. Total cost of mine so far,
>including buying two new LR ignition coil packs is 230 UKP. Fuelling
>only would cost you around 120 quid. To my mind, having an ecu that you
>can map yourself with free software that allows you to change fuel and
>ignition in real time is the only way to go.


would be neat, especially if you can map the ignition timing, as would be
good for the LPG. However, I'd be more likely to spend that sort of money
on equivalent box for the LPG side. Don't use the petrol all that often.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"There is plenty of time to win this game, and to thrash the Spaniards
too" Sir Francis Drake (1540? - 1596) Attr. saying when the Armarda was
sighted, 20th July 1588
 
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