Unusual Starting Issue When Cold

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43
Location
UK
Hi all,

It's not often I find myself not able to diagnose a fault on my 1980 2.25 Petrol Series 3 - usually there isn't an easier truck out there to work on! However, recently I've been running into an issue which I can't seem to solve.

Once the mercury falls below 0'c, the starter motor still turns over fine and fast as normal, but the engine will not fire. There's not even a cough from her, she'll just turn over until the battery starts to go flat. Once above freezing, it'll fire within 5 seconds of trying.

There's definitely fuel (plugs are wet, smells of petrol) and the ignition is spot on once it's running. I fitted a new 45D copy with electronic ignition, Lucas sports coil and HT leads from SimonBBC only last month and the ignition timing was set audibly (listen for pinking, and then back a bit).

Strangely, once the battery went flat trying to start last night, I jump started it off another car and then it instantly fired into life. It seems there's not sufficient voltage/current from the battery to turn the starter motor and the ignition, but with the help of another car, there is.

Has anyone else suffered a similar issue before? I could buy another battery for it and see if that helps, but it seems very unusual that if a battery is able to turn over an engine it won't provide sufficient spark. There must be another issue. Earthing perhaps?
 
Hi all,

It's not often I find myself not able to diagnose a fault on my 1980 2.25 Petrol Series 3 - usually there isn't an easier truck out there to work on! However, recently I've been running into an issue which I can't seem to solve.

Once the mercury falls below 0'c, the starter motor still turns over fine and fast as normal, but the engine will not fire. There's not even a cough from her, she'll just turn over until the battery starts to go flat. Once above freezing, it'll fire within 5 seconds of trying.

There's definitely fuel (plugs are wet, smells of petrol) and the ignition is spot on once it's running. I fitted a new 45D copy with electronic ignition, Lucas sports coil and HT leads from SimonBBC only last month and the ignition timing was set audibly (listen for pinking, and then back a bit).

Strangely, once the battery went flat trying to start last night, I jump started it off another car and then it instantly fired into life. It seems there's not sufficient voltage/current from the battery to turn the starter motor and the ignition, but with the help of another car, there is.

Has anyone else suffered a similar issue before? I could buy another battery for it and see if that helps, but it seems very unusual that if a battery is able to turn over an engine it won't provide sufficient spark. There must be another issue. Earthing perhaps?
measure the voltage drop at the battery when engines cranking,it may well be battery
 
It's worth me adding that often moment I release the key from the start position, she'll very briefly try to start. Seems like once there's no draw from the starter, but the engine is still turning, there's sufficient power to the ignition circuit.
 
that is suggesting the cold is reducing available power,as cold does reduce battery effectiveness and increase resistance in the system, try the same test at the coil feed,apart from checking /cleaning connections,spark plug gaps etc,id try another battery
 
Spark plug gaps were fine when I checked recently, and they're only 6 months old. I'll double check the battery to chassis and engine to chassis earthing straps, but looks like a new battery would be best.

Only other thing I can mention is once the truck has been running and the oil is nicely warmed up, the starter motor then turns over 3 times as quickly as when it first starts. I appreciate the battery will be charged a little more, and the 20w50 oil will have thinned a little, but it's a significant difference. Again, supports it being a battery issue and not earthing...
 
Spark plug gaps were fine when I checked recently, and they're only 6 months old. I'll double check the battery to chassis and engine to chassis earthing straps, but looks like a new battery would be best.

Only other thing I can mention is once the truck has been running and the oil is nicely warmed up, the starter motor then turns over 3 times as quickly as when it first starts. I appreciate the battery will be charged a little more, and the 20w50 oil will have thinned a little, but it's a significant difference. Again, supports it being a battery issue and not earthing...

Try a jump lead from earth on starter to engine ...
 
he 20w50 oil will have thinned a little,
My old motorcycles (some call them classics) require a 20/50 oil in summer but for winter 10/30 was specified. This was mainly because they were nigh on impossible to spin the engine over in freezing weather due to oil viscosity. Check your workshop manual and see if a different grade was specified for your landy in winter. If not, I would experiment and try a 10/40 part synthetic. (I think your main problem is oil viscosity, battery using all its power to spin the engine and none left to fire the plugs)
 
It's worth me adding that often moment I release the key from the start position, she'll very briefly try to start. Seems like once there's no draw from the starter, but the engine is still turning, there's sufficient power to the ignition circuit.
Try running a "hot wire" directly between your battery positive terminal and the positive side of the ignition coil. It sounds as if the voltage to the ignition coil primary circuit is being depleted by system resistance. It needs that full 12 volts to be getting to the coil for cold start.
It is not a permanent fix but just to prove a point, as @jamesmartin has already said your electrics could be marginal because of bad connections and then that is exacerbated by the cold increasing resistance. If the "hot wire" gets it started straight off you know where to look to get the problem fixed.
 
It's worth me adding that often moment I release the key from the start position, she'll very briefly try to start. Seems like once there's no draw from the starter, but the engine is still turning, there's sufficient power to the ignition circuit.

This sounds familiar ... so i had a starting problem also on my SIII 2.25 petrol only a week ago and in your above quote you mention the key thing.
I also at first suspected the starter and the battery as sometimes all i would get was a click! and as I released the key it would suddenly crank and try to fire.
The culprit in my case was the solenoid after the battery and the "hot wire" on the back of the ignition switch.
So check the ignition switch connections are good.
Then try taking the cables off the solenoid, a stiff wire brushing of the terminal and replace them good and tight.
Now check that the small earth wire from the solenoid to the body is making contact ( mine was loose as hell )

good luck mate

Simon
 
A great set of suggestions above, I'll try hot wiring it tomorrow as @Gazbo and @Dippypud have suggested, measuring the voltage.

@Wimblowdriver , I think you could be right. Other electrical issues compounded with the greater resistance of 20W50 could tip it over the edge of non-starting. That said, I ran an MGB on 20w50 over winters daily with no problems, and that was running 10:1 comp ratio - but never had any ignition issues.

Update: I fitted a brand new Yuasa 830CCA 95AH battery yesterday afternoon to eliminate it from being the problem. Fitted and it started absolutely fine. Battery voltage was 12.7V when fitted, and then went up to 13.1V after a quick run.

Went to start it this morning (-1'c) and yet again starter turns slower and it won't fire. 12.7V at the battery. Came back after work, turned it over and it started fine (currently +2'c). 0'c really seems to be the tipping point, below and it won't start, above and it's fine.

@Simon Perks Sounds a similar issue. I'll check the starter solenoid and clean up the contacts, although I've not had the classic issue of clicking and no starter. However, excessive resistance in the cables, poor connections or a poor earth could be compounding another issue, so when the system voltage is higher or the load on the starter is less, it'll start.

Lots to consider!
 
I have to drive to work every day at 05:30 and the average temp at that time up here is minus 5 or 6 and I don't have any cold starting ( slow starter )problems, i know this might now sound silly but is the choke operating properly?
 
@Simon Perks I don't believe the oil viscosity is the root problem, but it may be increasing the load on the starter both in terms of the speed it can turn the engine and the current it draws, dropping the voltage and preventing the ignition from providing sufficient spark. Once the engine oil is up to temperature, even though the battery voltage is just the same as it was, the starter turns significantly faster.
 
A great set of suggestions above, I'll try hot wiring it tomorrow as @Gazbo and @Dippypud have suggested, measuring the voltage.

@Wimblowdriver ,
Went to start it this morning (-1'c) and yet again starter turns slower and it won't fire. 12.7V at the battery. Came back after work, turned it over and it started fine (currently +2'c). 0'c really seems to be the tipping point, below and it won't start, above and it's fine.

Lots to consider!
Might be why my Dad moved from there to here in 1930, he didn't have a Landy, they weren't invented then, but it was never too cold here to start anything, even the lawnmower.
Considered moving to a warmer climate? Sorry for being an unhelpful bastid!
 
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