Freelander 2 (LR2) Unsolved Problem? ... My engine just cuts out ... dead!

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Well, after 4 garages, two separate Land Rover specialists, a LR main dealer a Car electronics specialist, and an ECU specialist, and the forking out of about just under £900 , on top of the 5K I forked out to repatriate the car, I am still none the wiser, so have decided to scrap the car .
 
Well, after 4 garages, two separate Land Rover specialists, a LR main dealer a Car electronics specialist, and an ECU specialist, and the forking out of about just under £900 , on top of the 5K I forked out to repatriate the car, I am still none the wiser, so have decided to scrap the car .
I hope before you scrap it you have had a look at the connector that was stopping @sanchi's car.

I can't understand why all the mechanics working on these cars that are cutting out are focusing so much on fuel - pumps, sensors, injectors etc.

If there were problems with these, there would be error codes being reported if the ECU stopped the engine - and it would do with low fuel pressure.

These problems look slam dunk intermittent electrical issues to me - as found by @sanchi.
 
I am still none the wiser, so have decided to scrap the car .

You're scrapping a Freelander 2 because of what is likely to be a simple issue?:confused:
My money is still on crank sensor or its plug.
If you can't fix it, sell it to someone who can.
Even a non running FL2 is worth 5 times the scrap value or more. ;)
 
Hello Sanchi. I hope you have better luck with your can than I've had with mine. Reading the thread, there is some good stuff here.

Some observations, if I may.
A) There are 3 fuel pumps in an FL2. Pump 1 is an electric pump in the fuel tank. It passes fuel from the left tank, over the hump of the prop shaft and into the 'main' fuel tank. That is all it does. If you have a full tank of diesel this pump serves no purpose as fuel from both tanks can be drawn out and passed to the front of the car. Changing this pump is expensive as you need to hoist the car, remove the exhaust pipes, remove the prop shaft, and then remove the fuel tank etc. At the time my car broke down my tank was nearly full (80%), so the problem was not this pump, yet the changed it!
The second fuel pump is located to the right side ( gear box ) of the engine block, and is part of the High Pressure (HP) fuel pump, which is above it. Number 2 pump is an electrically operated lift pump which SUCKS the fuel from the fuel tank, under the car, and into the fuel filter, and onwards to low pressure side of the Main pump. The 3rd pump is the High Pressure Fuel Pump. which draws fuel from a small reservoir immediately below it , in the LIFT Pump part of the unit. High pressure fuel (300-1200 Atmospheres ) is then directed, through steel pipes to the Common Rail. The HP Pump is mechanically driven by the exhaust Cam Shaft. The Common Rail has a three pin Pressure sensor on the left end, and a two pin Pressure release valve on the other end ( near to the HP pump). Both Sensors /Valve must be working properly.

B) Note that the crank position sensor is located at the bottom of the engine. To change this £10 item, one must remove the RHS front wheel, and remove two of the wheel arch panels behind the wheel space, and you will find it to the left of the crank shaft pulley. Not to be confused with the Cam Shaft Position Sensor, located at the top of the engine (Exhaust Cam), to the left of the Common rail.

C) It is my understanding that there are two ways ( or maybe more) to deal with the ECU. One, is to purchase a new ECU ($$$$) and have is re programmed to your car by Land Rover ( for Keys, Fuel Injectors, VIN, and vehicle specification etc), This is expensive. The second way is to buy a used ECU ( with exactly the same part number) and have it cloned by a specialist. It is important to have the Key accepted by the new or cloned ECU or it may not accept your key .... and immobilise the car.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Richard
 
Hello Sanchi. I hope you have better luck with your can than I've had with mine. Reading the thread, there is some good stuff here.

Some observations, if I may.
A) There are 3 fuel pumps in an FL2. Pump 1 is an electric pump in the fuel tank. It passes fuel from the left tank, over the hump of the prop shaft and into the 'main' fuel tank. That is all it does. If you have a full tank of diesel this pump serves no purpose as fuel from both tanks can be drawn out and passed to the front of the car. Changing this pump is expensive as you need to hoist the car, remove the exhaust pipes, remove the prop shaft, and then remove the fuel tank etc. At the time my car broke down my tank was nearly full (80%), so the problem was not this pump, yet the changed it!
The second fuel pump is located to the right side ( gear box ) of the engine block, and is part of the High Pressure (HP) fuel pump, which is above it. Number 2 pump is an electrically operated lift pump which SUCKS the fuel from the fuel tank, under the car, and into the fuel filter, and onwards to low pressure side of the Main pump. The 3rd pump is the High Pressure Fuel Pump. which draws fuel from a small reservoir immediately below it , in the LIFT Pump part of the unit. High pressure fuel (300-1200 Atmospheres ) is then directed, through steel pipes to the Common Rail. The HP Pump is mechanically driven by the exhaust Cam Shaft. The Common Rail has a three pin Pressure sensor on the left end, and a two pin Pressure release valve on the other end ( near to the HP pump). Both Sensors /Valve must be working properly.

B) Note that the crank position sensor is located at the bottom of the engine. To change this £10 item, one must remove the RHS front wheel, and remove two of the wheel arch panels behind the wheel space, and you will find it to the left of the crank shaft pulley. Not to be confused with the Cam Shaft Position Sensor, located at the top of the engine (Exhaust Cam), to the left of the Common rail.

C) It is my understanding that there are two ways ( or maybe more) to deal with the ECU. One, is to purchase a new ECU ($$$$) and have is re programmed to your car by Land Rover ( for Keys, Fuel Injectors, VIN, and vehicle specification etc), This is expensive. The second way is to buy a used ECU ( with exactly the same part number) and have it cloned by a specialist. It is important to have the Key accepted by the new or cloned ECU or it may not accept your key .... and immobilise the car.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Richard


His car is fixed. If you read back through you will see where the fault lay.
 
Hello Sanchi. I hope you have better luck with your can than I've had with mine. Reading the thread, there is some good stuff here.

Some observations, if I may.
A) There are 3 fuel pumps in an FL2. Pump 1 is an electric pump in the fuel tank. It passes fuel from the left tank, over the hump of the prop shaft and into the 'main' fuel tank. That is all it does. If you have a full tank of diesel this pump serves no purpose as fuel from both tanks can be drawn out and passed to the front of the car. Changing this pump is expensive as you need to hoist the car, remove the exhaust pipes, remove the prop shaft, and then remove the fuel tank etc. At the time my car broke down my tank was nearly full (80%), so the problem was not this pump, yet the changed it!
The second fuel pump is located to the right side ( gear box ) of the engine block, and is part of the High Pressure (HP) fuel pump, which is above it. Number 2 pump is an electrically operated lift pump which SUCKS the fuel from the fuel tank, under the car, and into the fuel filter, and onwards to low pressure side of the Main pump. The 3rd pump is the High Pressure Fuel Pump. which draws fuel from a small reservoir immediately below it , in the LIFT Pump part of the unit. High pressure fuel (300-1200 Atmospheres ) is then directed, through steel pipes to the Common Rail. The HP Pump is mechanically driven by the exhaust Cam Shaft. The Common Rail has a three pin Pressure sensor on the left end, and a two pin Pressure release valve on the other end ( near to the HP pump). Both Sensors /Valve must be working properly.

B) Note that the crank position sensor is located at the bottom of the engine. To change this £10 item, one must remove the RHS front wheel, and remove two of the wheel arch panels behind the wheel space, and you will find it to the left of the crank shaft pulley. Not to be confused with the Cam Shaft Position Sensor, located at the top of the engine (Exhaust Cam), to the left of the Common rail.

C) It is my understanding that there are two ways ( or maybe more) to deal with the ECU. One, is to purchase a new ECU ($$$$) and have is re programmed to your car by Land Rover ( for Keys, Fuel Injectors, VIN, and vehicle specification etc), This is expensive. The second way is to buy a used ECU ( with exactly the same part number) and have it cloned by a specialist. It is important to have the Key accepted by the new or cloned ECU or it may not accept your key .... and immobilise the car.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Richard
Some of this information is inaccurate.

There are 3 fuel pumps.
The tank pump is electric, and as you correctly said, only pumps fuel from the LH side of the tank to the RH side, simply to prevent fuel stagnation and to get the fuel over the tank centre hump when the level is too low for it to travel over the hump by itself.
If the gauge is showing over ¼ or there abouts, then fuel will be drawn from the tank.
Pump 2 is a mechanical lift pump, which is part of the high pressure pump assembly. This lift pump will draw a good strong vacuum on the fuel line, so the high pressure pump gets plenty of fuel. There is an ECM controlled fuel volume control valve mounted on the HP fuel pump assembly, which passes excess fuel back to the fuel filter return line, for recycling (temperature depending) or returning to the tank.
Pump 3 is also mechanical, and is the high pressure pump. This gets fuel from the LP section of the pump assembly, and boosts the pressure up to 150,000kPa passing it to the fuel rail.

The mechanical lift pump and HP pump are driven by the exhaust camshaft.
There's no electric pump, other than the transfer pump in the tank.

The fuel rail contains a rail pressure sensor on the timing belt end, and a pressure control valve on the gearbox end. The rail sensor sends pressure values to the ECM for processing. The pressure control valve is under ECM control, and works in tandem with the fuel volume control valve described above, to maintain tight control on fuel pressure, regardless of engine speed or fuel temperature.
The fuel injector leak off pipes are unusual in they are pressurised to 10 Bar (145 PSI), by the pressure control valve in the return line to the filter. The injectors won't work if there's low pressure in the leak off pipe line.

The crank sensor is at the bottom of the engine, and is easily changed. There's no need to remove the wheel, just the splash shield needs moving aside. This job is easily done at the side of the road in under 10 minutes, I know, I've done it, twice.

You can have LR replace an ECM (they seldom go wrong) with a new one, but this is unnecessary, and very expensive.

A second hand ECM can be configured to the vehicle using a cloned cope of JLR SDD, and a Mongoose lead, or by an LR specialist using a genuine copy JLR SDD.

There's no need to have the ECM cloned, as LR's own software will configure new and second hand ECMs in just a few minutes.
 
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His car is fixed. If you read back through you will see where the fault lay.
Yeh, by keep giving these cutting out cars to grease monkeys to fix, they will be bolting on bits that are not needed, and you'll be paying for them and the grease monkey's time.

I wonder if you took the cars to a panel beaters, whether they would change panels with no evidence that they are causing the problem :rolleyes:

Maybe take it to church on Sunday, the vicar could pray for it.

So, 3 not very good suggestions.

They need to go to an auto sparky to fix.
 
Have any of these (so-called) mechanics done any logging to see what changes when the car stops?

Does the engine stop like the ignition is turned off (dash lights etc off too?) or more like it's stalled (dash lights on etc). Do the injectors stop but the ECU remains alive? Do other items turn off?

Most faults with a clean/quick shut down are simple issues: Relays or sensors that suddenly stop due to the repeated heat cycles that affect them.

Depending on design, for most cars it's a cam sensor, crank sensor or the power supply to a vital part.

I know NOTHING about Freelanders, but I'd suspect Crank or cam sensor, or something like the ECM power relay or injector power relay (or the wiring to them) type of scenario. It can even be something as stupid as a fuse with a cracked link or the ignition switch.

I work in a medical technical field; everyone seems to what to find a super-complicated fault, when most of the time they're simple and easy - start with the basics. Not with a parts cannon.
 
Have any of these (so-called) mechanics done any logging to see what changes when the car stops?

Does the engine stop like the ignition is turned off (dash lights etc off too?) or more like it's stalled (dash lights on etc). Do the injectors stop but the ECU remains alive? Do other items turn off?

Most faults with a clean/quick shut down are simple issues: Relays or sensors that suddenly stop due to the repeated heat cycles that affect them.

Depending on design, for most cars it's a cam sensor, crank sensor or the power supply to a vital part.

I know NOTHING about Freelanders, but I'd suspect Crank or cam sensor, or something like the ECM power relay or injector power relay (or the wiring to them) type of scenario. It can even be something as stupid as a fuse with a cracked link or the ignition switch.

I work in a medical technical field; everyone seems to what to find a super-complicated fault, when most of the time they're simple and easy - start with the basics. Not with a parts cannon.
If it was an F1, the ignition switch would be on all the police posters as a prime suspect. :D
 
Yeh, by keep giving these cutting out cars to grease monkeys to fix, they will be bolting on bits that are not needed, and you'll be paying for them and the grease monkey's time.

In my experience, random cutting out on the FL2 is always electrical.
All the BS about high pressure fuel pumps failing is just that, BS. The HP pump on the FL2 is very reliable, probably the most reliable part of the whole car.
The injectors do fail occasionally, but they don't cause cutting out, just a misfire.

Like I said, cutting out with a restart after a few minutes is almost always electrical, the prime suspect for this is the crank sensor, or its plug.
Unfortunately it's in a stupid place, and the arch liner doesn't fully cover the area where it's mounted, so it gets wet and dirty from road spray.
The crank sensor plug is also subject to contact spreading, which limits or prevents it from connecting firmly to the sensor terminal blades.
Aftermarket sensors are garbage, and often have thin terminal blades, which don't make firm contact with the wider plug contacts.
The OP spent £10 on a sensor, so it's definitely a cheap Chinese part if dubious quality. The OE part is made by Febi Bilstein, and is the only part to fit IMO.
It's also worth replacing the plug or at least it's contacts, as it's a bad design.

Cam sensor will stop the engine from starting, but it won't stop the engine running once started.

Definitely proper diagnosis is required, not just bolting on random and expensive parts, as often this can add more issues than it had to start with.
 
Yeh, by keep giving these cutting out cars to grease monkeys to fix, they will be bolting on bits that are not needed, and you'll be paying for them and the grease monkey's time.

I wonder if you took the cars to a panel beaters, whether they would change panels with no evidence that they are causing the problem :rolleyes:

Maybe take it to church on Sunday, the vicar could pray for it.

So, 3 not very good suggestions.

They need to go to an auto sparky to fix.

That's the thing, isn't it? Can't isolate the fault so keep replacing bits until it gets fixed. There should be some law against doing that - either you know what the problem is or you don't, and if you don't don't keep swapping parts in the hope you will magically strike lucky. I don't think there is any excuse. I'm not even a good DIY mechanic but I was still able to fix my sister's car when it kept cutting out after Land Rover mechanics had failed. That should not be happening.
 
So sorry to hear you are scraping the car @RHarker ! I can imagine how frustrating your experience was!
But please, before you do, give those ECU connectors a try. I see you had an ecu specialist on a list of people trying to fix it, but did he actually take it out and check the connections?
I just had a 2500 km trip with my car and had no issues. And we had quite similar symptoms, only yours progressed to the point of not being able to start the car any more cause more time had passed. Mine were getting worse as the days were passing, but luckily they accidentally found a fix.
I see that most of us here are getting frustrated with the mechanics and garages who are getting more and more clueless how to actually diagnose issues that are not obvious! Someone recently told me most of them are just spare parts installers and not much more. Sadly, they are probably right
 
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