Transfer box clunk.

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A

Austin Shackles

Guest

Just thinking, idly...

anyone know how much the gearbox output shaft and the cross-drilled transfer
box gear cost as replacement parts, and is it worth the undoubted effort
involved in pulling the 'box and stripping it to change just these two bits?

and more idle thoughts:

anyone tried fitting Steve Parker's oiler gadget to an LT77/LT230 combo, and
did it make any difference?

judging by the clunks in this one, it's fairly worn. If the oiler gadget
isn't silly money, I might fit one in any case to see if it helps, can't see
how it can make it worse. Mind, ought to be possible to make one, in
theory...

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'
 
Austin Hi,

I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.

It is extremely easy to install also.
You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant and
you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.

Mind you the bolt holes on the cover, gaskets and oil feeder are not
unidirectional so you will have to align everything before fitting on the
car.

Take care
Pantelis

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Just thinking, idly...
>
> anyone know how much the gearbox output shaft and the cross-drilled
transfer
> box gear cost as replacement parts, and is it worth the undoubted effort
> involved in pulling the 'box and stripping it to change just these two
bits?
>
> and more idle thoughts:
>
> anyone tried fitting Steve Parker's oiler gadget to an LT77/LT230 combo,
and
> did it make any difference?
>
> judging by the clunks in this one, it's fairly worn. If the oiler gadget
> isn't silly money, I might fit one in any case to see if it helps, can't
see
> how it can make it worse. Mind, ought to be possible to make one, in
> theory...
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
> - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'


 
"Pantelis Giamarellos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Austin Hi,
>
> I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
> Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
> friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.
>
> It is extremely easy to install also.
> You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
> gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant
and
> you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.

If anybody does this, I have a brand new gasket in the garage which I'll
never use...

David


 
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:48:00 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Just thinking, idly...

Is the clonk from the transfer box?

I reckon mine is from the final cog on the gearbox output shaft -
which has badly worn splines. My guess is that the slack on overrun
is then whacking force into the transfer box...

Just a thought...


--
Some Land Roveresque (101 biased), links available
from: http://links.solis.co.uk/Geek/X4_Land_Rover/
I also have a little Land Rover site biased toward
my beloved 101 "Grumble", at: http://www.101fc.net


Reading this in 'alt.fan.landrover'? Did you know
there's a group FAQ: http://www.aflfaq.dyndns.info
 
On or around Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:15:24 +0100, Mother <"@ {mother}
@"@101fc.net> enlightened us thusly:

>On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:48:00 +0100, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Just thinking, idly...
>
>Is the clonk from the transfer box?
>
>I reckon mine is from the final cog on the gearbox output shaft -
>which has badly worn splines. My guess is that the slack on overrun
>is then whacking force into the transfer box...
>
>Just a thought...

the LT77/LT230 combo in early discos is infamous for wearing the splines,
mind. what box in yours?

I'll be looking into getting one of those oil catcher things from Steve
Parker sometime soon, and while fitting this may, or may not, be able to
assess wear.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"The boys are dreaming wicked or of the bucking ranches of the night and
the jollyrodgered sea." Dylan Thomas (1914 - 1953) Under milk wood
 
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:18:50 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>the LT77/LT230 combo in early discos is infamous for wearing the splines,
>mind. what box in yours?

An LT95 - but I thought it worth mentioning in case you were unaware
of the issue or potentially going to spend silly money on fixing it :)


--
Some Land Roveresque (101 biased), links available
from: http://links.solis.co.uk/Geek/X4_Land_Rover/
I also have a little Land Rover site biased toward
my beloved 101 "Grumble", at: http://www.101fc.net


Reading this in 'alt.fan.landrover'? Did you know
there's a group FAQ: http://www.aflfaq.dyndns.info
 
Hi,

Can anyone tell me how I get all the infos on this Steve Parker's oil
feeder(website ?) and how to cross-drill the T-box input gear(can we
do it by ourselves ?).
TIA,

Hertriono Kartowisastro



"Pantelis Giamarellos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Austin Hi,
>
> I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
> Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
> friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.
>
> It is extremely easy to install also.
> You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
> gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant and
> you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.
>
> Mind you the bolt holes on the cover, gaskets and oil feeder are not
> unidirectional so you will have to align everything before fitting on the
> car.
>
> Take care
> Pantelis
>
> "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Just thinking, idly...
> >
> > anyone know how much the gearbox output shaft and the cross-drilled
> transfer
> > box gear cost as replacement parts, and is it worth the undoubted effort
> > involved in pulling the 'box and stripping it to change just these two
> bits?
> >
> > and more idle thoughts:
> >
> > anyone tried fitting Steve Parker's oiler gadget to an LT77/LT230 combo,
> and
> > did it make any difference?
> >
> > judging by the clunks in this one, it's fairly worn. If the oiler gadget
> > isn't silly money, I might fit one in any case to see if it helps, can't
> see
> > how it can make it worse. Mind, ought to be possible to make one, in
> > theory...
> >
> > --
> > Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> > "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
> > - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'
 
Austin Hi,

I highly recommend Steve Parker's oil feeder.
And he also does mail orders so it won't be difficult to order it and have
it installed.

Do it ASAP and you will not regret it.

Take care
Pantelis

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:15:24 +0100, Mother <"@ {mother}
> @"@101fc.net> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:48:00 +0100, Austin Shackles
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Just thinking, idly...
> >
> >Is the clonk from the transfer box?
> >
> >I reckon mine is from the final cog on the gearbox output shaft -
> >which has badly worn splines. My guess is that the slack on overrun
> >is then whacking force into the transfer box...
> >
> >Just a thought...
>
> the LT77/LT230 combo in early discos is infamous for wearing the splines,
> mind. what box in yours?
>
> I'll be looking into getting one of those oil catcher things from Steve
> Parker sometime soon, and while fitting this may, or may not, be able to
> assess wear.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "The boys are dreaming wicked or of the bucking ranches of the night and
> the jollyrodgered sea." Dylan Thomas (1914 - 1953) Under milk wood


 
Hertriono Hi,

Steve Parker can be contacted from here

www.steve-parker.co.uk (you will find their e-mail in their site)

A new cross drilled input gear will cost you 45 pounds from Ashcroft (plus
shipping though but is should not be too much considering its light weight)

As for drilling it locally I can not comment. Any good metal fitting shop
should be able to drill a hole to a non cross drilled input gear but maybe
the heat produced by drilling it will weaken the metal and possible break
under load.

Take care
Pantelis

"Hertriono Kartowisastro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me how I get all the infos on this Steve Parker's oil
> feeder(website ?) and how to cross-drill the T-box input gear(can we
> do it by ourselves ?).
> TIA,
>
> Hertriono Kartowisastro
>
>
>
> "Pantelis Giamarellos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Austin Hi,
> >
> > I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
> > Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
> > friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.
> >
> > It is extremely easy to install also.
> > You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
> > gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant
and
> > you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.
> >
> > Mind you the bolt holes on the cover, gaskets and oil feeder are not
> > unidirectional so you will have to align everything before fitting on
the
> > car.
> >
> > Take care
> > Pantelis
> >
> > "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Just thinking, idly...
> > >
> > > anyone know how much the gearbox output shaft and the cross-drilled
> > transfer
> > > box gear cost as replacement parts, and is it worth the undoubted
effort
> > > involved in pulling the 'box and stripping it to change just these two
> > bits?
> > >
> > > and more idle thoughts:
> > >
> > > anyone tried fitting Steve Parker's oiler gadget to an LT77/LT230
combo,
> > and
> > > did it make any difference?
> > >
> > > judging by the clunks in this one, it's fairly worn. If the oiler
gadget
> > > isn't silly money, I might fit one in any case to see if it helps,
can't
> > see
> > > how it can make it worse. Mind, ought to be possible to make one, in
> > > theory...
> > >
> > > --
> > > Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> > > "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
> > > - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'


 
On or around Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:20:04 +0300, "Pantelis Giamarellos"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>As for drilling it locally I can not comment. Any good metal fitting shop
>should be able to drill a hole to a non cross drilled input gear but maybe
>the heat produced by drilling it will weaken the metal and possible break
>under load.

you'll be lucky, they're hard. I think it has to be drilled before
hardening.

once took a gear cluster to the local machining shop bloke to see if he
could re-do the bearing surface inside one end, he took out a scriber,
scratched at the surface and said "no chance".

problems with the "new gear" approach are:

a) no point in doing it without replacing the shaft, since AIUI it's mostly
the shaft that wears
b) the above exercise requires at least partial strip of the gearbox
c) the above exercise requires removal of the box and t-box from the
vehicle.

by contrast, Steve Parker's thing is (fairly) easy to fit in situ.
doubtless easier on a defender, where you can get access from above through
the seatbox. don't think you can on a disco, which means doing it from
underneath.

I'd have ordered one by now, but their secure order form is down for
refurbishing.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)
 
Austin Hi,

I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.

It is extremely easy to install also.
You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant and
you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.

Mind you the bolt holes on the cover, gaskets and oil feeder are not
unidirectional so you will have to align everything before fitting on the
car.

Take care
Pantelis

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Just thinking, idly...
>
> anyone know how much the gearbox output shaft and the cross-drilled
transfer
> box gear cost as replacement parts, and is it worth the undoubted effort
> involved in pulling the 'box and stripping it to change just these two
bits?
>
> and more idle thoughts:
>
> anyone tried fitting Steve Parker's oiler gadget to an LT77/LT230 combo,
and
> did it make any difference?
>
> judging by the clunks in this one, it's fairly worn. If the oiler gadget
> isn't silly money, I might fit one in any case to see if it helps, can't
see
> how it can make it worse. Mind, ought to be possible to make one, in
> theory...
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
> - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'


 
"Pantelis Giamarellos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Austin Hi,
>
> I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
> Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
> friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.
>
> It is extremely easy to install also.
> You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
> gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant
and
> you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.

If anybody does this, I have a brand new gasket in the garage which I'll
never use...

David


 
Austin Hi,

If you can lift the Disco up it is extremely easy to do it from underneath.

Take care
Pantelis

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:20:04 +0300, "Pantelis Giamarellos"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >As for drilling it locally I can not comment. Any good metal fitting shop
> >should be able to drill a hole to a non cross drilled input gear but
maybe
> >the heat produced by drilling it will weaken the metal and possible break
> >under load.
>
> you'll be lucky, they're hard. I think it has to be drilled before
> hardening.
>
> once took a gear cluster to the local machining shop bloke to see if he
> could re-do the bearing surface inside one end, he took out a scriber,
> scratched at the surface and said "no chance".
>
> problems with the "new gear" approach are:
>
> a) no point in doing it without replacing the shaft, since AIUI it's
mostly
> the shaft that wears
> b) the above exercise requires at least partial strip of the gearbox
> c) the above exercise requires removal of the box and t-box from the
> vehicle.
>
> by contrast, Steve Parker's thing is (fairly) easy to fit in situ.
> doubtless easier on a defender, where you can get access from above
through
> the seatbox. don't think you can on a disco, which means doing it from
> underneath.
>
> I'd have ordered one by now, but their secure order form is down for
> refurbishing.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
> drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
> flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)


 
Hi,

Can anyone tell me how I get all the infos on this Steve Parker's oil
feeder(website ?) and how to cross-drill the T-box input gear(can we
do it by ourselves ?).
TIA,

Hertriono Kartowisastro



"Pantelis Giamarellos" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Austin Hi,
>
> I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
> Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
> friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.
>
> It is extremely easy to install also.
> You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
> gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant and
> you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.
>
> Mind you the bolt holes on the cover, gaskets and oil feeder are not
> unidirectional so you will have to align everything before fitting on the
> car.
>
> Take care
> Pantelis
>
> "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Just thinking, idly...
> >
> > anyone know how much the gearbox output shaft and the cross-drilled
> transfer
> > box gear cost as replacement parts, and is it worth the undoubted effort
> > involved in pulling the 'box and stripping it to change just these two
> bits?
> >
> > and more idle thoughts:
> >
> > anyone tried fitting Steve Parker's oiler gadget to an LT77/LT230 combo,
> and
> > did it make any difference?
> >
> > judging by the clunks in this one, it's fairly worn. If the oiler gadget
> > isn't silly money, I might fit one in any case to see if it helps, can't
> see
> > how it can make it worse. Mind, ought to be possible to make one, in
> > theory...
> >
> > --
> > Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> > "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
> > - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'
 
Austin Hi,

I highly recommend Steve Parker's oil feeder.
And he also does mail orders so it won't be difficult to order it and have
it installed.

Do it ASAP and you will not regret it.

Take care
Pantelis

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:15:24 +0100, Mother <"@ {mother}
> @"@101fc.net> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:48:00 +0100, Austin Shackles
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Just thinking, idly...
> >
> >Is the clonk from the transfer box?
> >
> >I reckon mine is from the final cog on the gearbox output shaft -
> >which has badly worn splines. My guess is that the slack on overrun
> >is then whacking force into the transfer box...
> >
> >Just a thought...
>
> the LT77/LT230 combo in early discos is infamous for wearing the splines,
> mind. what box in yours?
>
> I'll be looking into getting one of those oil catcher things from Steve
> Parker sometime soon, and while fitting this may, or may not, be able to
> assess wear.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "The boys are dreaming wicked or of the bucking ranches of the night and
> the jollyrodgered sea." Dylan Thomas (1914 - 1953) Under milk wood


 
Hertriono Hi,

Steve Parker can be contacted from here

www.steve-parker.co.uk (you will find their e-mail in their site)

A new cross drilled input gear will cost you 45 pounds from Ashcroft (plus
shipping though but is should not be too much considering its light weight)

As for drilling it locally I can not comment. Any good metal fitting shop
should be able to drill a hole to a non cross drilled input gear but maybe
the heat produced by drilling it will weaken the metal and possible break
under load.

Take care
Pantelis

"Hertriono Kartowisastro" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone tell me how I get all the infos on this Steve Parker's oil
> feeder(website ?) and how to cross-drill the T-box input gear(can we
> do it by ourselves ?).
> TIA,
>
> Hertriono Kartowisastro
>
>
>
> "Pantelis Giamarellos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Austin Hi,
> >
> > I have fitted a Steve Parker oil feeder and it DOES make a difference.
> > Reduced whining from the Tbox is the immediate result. So I guess reduce
> > friction and wear must be a non so immediately noticeable result also.
> >
> > It is extremely easy to install also.
> > You just remove the eight (IIRC) bolts, take the cover out, install the
> > gaskets on either side of the oil feeder plate, apply a bit more sealant
and
> > you just put it in place and then re-install the cover and the bolts.
> >
> > Mind you the bolt holes on the cover, gaskets and oil feeder are not
> > unidirectional so you will have to align everything before fitting on
the
> > car.
> >
> > Take care
> > Pantelis
> >
> > "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Just thinking, idly...
> > >
> > > anyone know how much the gearbox output shaft and the cross-drilled
> > transfer
> > > box gear cost as replacement parts, and is it worth the undoubted
effort
> > > involved in pulling the 'box and stripping it to change just these two
> > bits?
> > >
> > > and more idle thoughts:
> > >
> > > anyone tried fitting Steve Parker's oiler gadget to an LT77/LT230
combo,
> > and
> > > did it make any difference?
> > >
> > > judging by the clunks in this one, it's fairly worn. If the oiler
gadget
> > > isn't silly money, I might fit one in any case to see if it helps,
can't
> > see
> > > how it can make it worse. Mind, ought to be possible to make one, in
> > > theory...
> > >
> > > --
> > > Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> > > "Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
> > > - Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'


 
On or around Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:20:04 +0300, "Pantelis Giamarellos"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>As for drilling it locally I can not comment. Any good metal fitting shop
>should be able to drill a hole to a non cross drilled input gear but maybe
>the heat produced by drilling it will weaken the metal and possible break
>under load.

you'll be lucky, they're hard. I think it has to be drilled before
hardening.

once took a gear cluster to the local machining shop bloke to see if he
could re-do the bearing surface inside one end, he took out a scriber,
scratched at the surface and said "no chance".

problems with the "new gear" approach are:

a) no point in doing it without replacing the shaft, since AIUI it's mostly
the shaft that wears
b) the above exercise requires at least partial strip of the gearbox
c) the above exercise requires removal of the box and t-box from the
vehicle.

by contrast, Steve Parker's thing is (fairly) easy to fit in situ.
doubtless easier on a defender, where you can get access from above through
the seatbox. don't think you can on a disco, which means doing it from
underneath.

I'd have ordered one by now, but their secure order form is down for
refurbishing.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)
 
Austin Hi,

If you can lift the Disco up it is extremely easy to do it from underneath.

Take care
Pantelis

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:20:04 +0300, "Pantelis Giamarellos"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >As for drilling it locally I can not comment. Any good metal fitting shop
> >should be able to drill a hole to a non cross drilled input gear but
maybe
> >the heat produced by drilling it will weaken the metal and possible break
> >under load.
>
> you'll be lucky, they're hard. I think it has to be drilled before
> hardening.
>
> once took a gear cluster to the local machining shop bloke to see if he
> could re-do the bearing surface inside one end, he took out a scriber,
> scratched at the surface and said "no chance".
>
> problems with the "new gear" approach are:
>
> a) no point in doing it without replacing the shaft, since AIUI it's
mostly
> the shaft that wears
> b) the above exercise requires at least partial strip of the gearbox
> c) the above exercise requires removal of the box and t-box from the
> vehicle.
>
> by contrast, Steve Parker's thing is (fairly) easy to fit in situ.
> doubtless easier on a defender, where you can get access from above
through
> the seatbox. don't think you can on a disco, which means doing it from
> underneath.
>
> I'd have ordered one by now, but their secure order form is down for
> refurbishing.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
> drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
> flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)


 
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