Tow socket wiring

This site contains affiliate links for which LandyZone may be compensated if you make a purchase.
[email protected] wrote:

||| The fact that it hasn't failed its MOT on a particular point doesn't
||| necessarily mean it's road legal. It must comply with Construction
||| and Use Regulations at all times.
|||
||| Police forces in the popular holiday areas are increasingly making
||| spot checks on caravan outfits.
||
||
|| Glad to see that in these challenging times our police are still
|| able to prioritise their resource
|| --
|| john

Yes, you'd think they had some middle-class taxpayers doing 31mph to see to.
:)

--
Rich
==============================

Take out the obvious to email me.


 
Greg wrote:
> "beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:6184a664e%[email protected]...
>
>>I don't recall Series III's as having any "warning" device?
>
>
> No as far as I can find they didn't, and as other requirements they've added
> are non-retrospective I'm hoping I don't have to have one of the damn things
> :cool:.
> Greg
>
>

Saved my life though. Nothing worse than driving along not realising
that your trailer lights aren't working for some reason - indicate
then manouvre whilst no-one knows what you are about to do, or the
same with braking, or just no rear lights at all!

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

 
A knowleagable bloke in another group has pointed me at the relevant law:

"Guy King" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989
>
> 11 (b) The vehicle shall be equipped with an operational tell-tale for
> front and rear indicators (including any rear indicator on the rearmost
> of any trailers drawn by the vehicle).
>
> Elsewhere an "Operational tell-tale" is defined as "A warning device
> readily visible or audible to the driver and showing whether a device
> that has been switched on is operating correctly or not."
>
> So - visible is OK.
>
> I can't find any newer regulations that cover this.

Now I'm not a lawyer but I think the author (of the law) has made two rather
silly cockups, firstly the options A or B have two totally different
meanings and secondly there is no clause saying that this does not apply to
older vehicles!.

Option A is just to be able to see the front indicator, which does nothing
more than remind you that the indicator is still switched on. Option B
requires indication of the correct operation of every indicator on the
vehicle and trailer, I strongly suspect that option B should have been
worded "circuit closed tell-tale" and was simply intended as an alternative
for vehicles where you can't see the front indicator. There's little sense
in requiring a bulb failure detector on indicators but not on brake lights
or side/tail lights, plenty of people forget to indicate with no
consequences but if both tail lights are out at night you stand a very good
chance of being rammed!.

The trouble is, these trailer buzzers only provide operational tell-tale for
the trailer, the fast-flash feature of the vehicle flasher relay which is
supposed to do it for the vehicle indicators is defeated when a trailer adds
a third bulb the the circuit so they are not complying with the law.

The other point is the lack of a clause exempting older vehicles, the other
additional requirements all have such a clause but this one has missed it
out, surely a mistake as it made any vehicle on the road at the time without
such operational tell-tale illegal over night which simply isn't the way
vehicle law has been written.

My guess is that I can simply leave the wiring as it was in 1972 and there's
no possibility of one of those random check points the plod seem to find
time for ever taking it any further as such a cocked up law is not
enforceable, but I thought others here might be interested as it does seem
to make many older vehicles technically illegal!.

Greg


 

>> The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989
>>
>> 11 (b) The vehicle shall be equipped with an operational tell-tale for
>> front and rear indicators (including any rear indicator on the rearmost
>> of any trailers drawn by the vehicle).
>>
>> Elsewhere an "Operational tell-tale" is defined as "A warning device
>> readily visible or audible to the driver and showing whether a device
>> that has been switched on is operating correctly or not."
>>
>> So - visible is OK.
>>
>> I can't find any newer regulations that cover this.
>
> Thanks very much for the pointer Guy, I've got the document and had a look
> through it. Now I'm not a lawyer but I think the author has made two
> rather
> silly cockups, firstly the options A or B have two totally different
> meanings and secondly there is no clause saying that this does not apply
> to
> older vehicles!.
>
> Option A is just to be able to see the front indicator, which does nothing
> more than remind you that the indicator is still switched on. Option B
> requires indication of the correct operation of every indicator on the
> vehicle and trailer, I strongly suspect that option B should have been
> worded "circuit closed tell-tale" and was simply intended as an
> alternative
> for vehicles where you can't see the front indicator.
>
Ok, for a start if you are talking about option a's and option b's it would
help if you quoted what you are referring to, so people might have a clue
what you are talking about!
So, for the record......


11. Tell-tale-

(a) One or more indicators on each side of a vehicle to which
indicators are fitted shall be so designed and fitted that the driver when
in his seat can readily be aware when it is in operation; or

(b) The vehicle shall be equipped with an operational tell-tale for
front and rear indicators (including any rear indicator on the rearmost of
any trailers drawn by the vehicle).


The wording of the law is quite clear, if you can see the indicators
operating, such as on some older vehicles, then you do not need to have a
tell-tale, either for the vehicle or the trailer, as you are complying with
part a.
However, if you cannot see the indicators operating, then you must comply
with part b fully, and have a tell-tale for both the vehicle and the
trailer.


> The trouble is, these trailer buzzers only provide operational tell-tale
> for
> the trailer, the fast-flash feature of the vehicle flasher relay which is
> supposed to do it for the vehicle indicators is defeated when a trailer
> adds
> a third bulb the circuit so they are not complying with the law.
>
That is not a problem with the way the law is written, it is a faulty
installation by whoever wired the trailer socket up.

> The other point is the lack of a clause exempting older vehicles, the
> other
> additional requirements all have such a clause but this one has missed it
> out, surely a mistake as it made any vehicle on the road at the time
> without
> such operational tell-tale illegal over night which simply isn't the way
> vehicle law has been written.
>
Some vehicle laws are written such that they do not apply retrospectively,
this one however isn't.

> My guess is that I can simply leave the wiring as it was in 1972 and
> there's
> no possibility of one of those random check points the plod seem to find
> time for ever taking it any further as such a cocked up law is not
> enforceable.
>
The law is perfectly enforceable, however I suspect that no one would
bother.


 
"SimonJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ok, for a start if you are talking about option a's and option b's it
would
> help if you quoted what you are referring to, so people might have a clue
> what you are talking about!

Actually I did quote option B word for word, and paraphrased option A
accurately, but fair enough if you want it spelt out, I was bringing the
information here from another group as I though it may be of interest so I
cut-n-pasted.

> The wording of the law is quite clear

I don't remember saying it wasn't clear, cockups can be as clear as day :cool:

> However, if you cannot see the indicators operating, then you must comply
> with part b fully, and have a tell-tale for both the vehicle and the
> trailer.

No not just a tell tale, an "operational tell-tale" which by their
definition is: "A warning device readily visible or audible to the driver
and showing whether a device that has been switched on is operating
correctly or not."

And that's the problem, it has to show if the device is operating correctly
which is far more demanding than just being able to see the front
indicators. This clause is presumably why flasher units have the fast flash
feature and trailer buzzers are fitted at all. If it only required a
"Circuit-closed tell-tale" which is the only other definition of a tell-tale
in the law and is defined as: "A light showing that a device has been
switched on" then the arrow lights on the dash would be all that is
required.

> > The trouble is, these trailer buzzers only provide operational tell-tale
> > for
> > the trailer, the fast-flash feature of the vehicle flasher relay which
is
> > supposed to do it for the vehicle indicators is defeated when a trailer
> > adds
> > a third bulb the circuit so they are not complying with the law.
> >
> That is not a problem with the way the law is written, it is a faulty
> installation by whoever wired the trailer socket up.

How can the buzzer be installed so that it indicates a failure of a vehicle
indicator?, and how can a trailer bulb be added to the indicator circuit and
NOT defeat the fast-flash feature unless very sensitive slave relays are
added?. I've never come across such slaves and have had tow bars fitted
'professionally' to quite a few vehicles which would all appear to have been
illegal because they wouldn't indicate a single bulb failure on the car when
a trailer was hooked up.

> Some vehicle laws are written such that they do not apply retrospectively,
> this one however isn't.

Well every other part of this rather lengthy one is, so I think it
reasonable to assume it's a mistake that it was omitted from just one clause
!

> The law is perfectly enforceable, however I suspect that no one would
> bother.

I've read that laws which have glaring cock-ups in them are not enforceable
as far as the cock-up is concerned, though couldn't quote chapter and verse
on it.
Greg


 

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "SimonJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Ok, for a start if you are talking about option a's and option b's it
> would
>> help if you quoted what you are referring to, so people might have a clue
>> what you are talking about!
>
> Actually I did quote option B word for word, and paraphrased option A
> accurately, but fair enough if you want it spelt out, I was bringing the
> information here from another group as I though it may be of interest so I
> cut-n-pasted.
>
>> The wording of the law is quite clear
>
> I don't remember saying it wasn't clear, cockups can be as clear as day
> :cool:
>
>> However, if you cannot see the indicators operating, then you must comply
>> with part b fully, and have a tell-tale for both the vehicle and the
>> trailer.
>
> No not just a tell tale, an "operational tell-tale" which by their
> definition is: "A warning device readily visible or audible to the driver
> and showing whether a device that has been switched on is operating
> correctly or not."
>
> And that's the problem, it has to show if the device is operating
> correctly
> which is far more demanding than just being able to see the front
> indicators. This clause is presumably why flasher units have the fast
> flash
> feature and trailer buzzers are fitted at all. If it only required a
> "Circuit-closed tell-tale" which is the only other definition of a
> tell-tale
> in the law and is defined as: "A light showing that a device has been
> switched on" then the arrow lights on the dash would be all that is
> required.
>
The whole point of the ruling is to tell you that the lights have failed,
having a light on the dash to tell you that the indicator has been switched
on does not do that.

>> > The trouble is, these trailer buzzers only provide operational
>> > tell-tale
>> > for
>> > the trailer, the fast-flash feature of the vehicle flasher relay which
> is
>> > supposed to do it for the vehicle indicators is defeated when a trailer
>> > adds
>> > a third bulb the circuit so they are not complying with the law.
>> >
>> That is not a problem with the way the law is written, it is a faulty
>> installation by whoever wired the trailer socket up.
>
> How can the buzzer be installed so that it indicates a failure of a
> vehicle
> indicator?, and how can a trailer bulb be added to the indicator circuit
> and
> NOT defeat the fast-flash feature unless very sensitive slave relays are
> added?. I've never come across such slaves and have had tow bars fitted
> 'professionally' to quite a few vehicles which would all appear to have
> been
> illegal because they wouldn't indicate a single bulb failure on the car
> when
> a trailer was hooked up.
>
The instalation is illegal, "profesionally" fitted or not.
They should have used a device such as this......
http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=13145
Many such devices are available, that just happened to be the first on
google came up with.

>> Some vehicle laws are written such that they do not apply
>> retrospectively,
>> this one however isn't.
>
> Well every other part of this rather lengthy one is, so I think it
> reasonable to assume it's a mistake that it was omitted from just one
> clause
> !
>
>> The law is perfectly enforceable, however I suspect that no one would
>> bother.
>
> I've read that laws which have glaring cock-ups in them are not
> enforceable
> as far as the cock-up is concerned, though couldn't quote chapter and
> verse
> on it.
> Greg
>
>


 
"SimonJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>The whole point of the ruling is to tell you that the lights have failed,

That's your interpretation of the author's intentions, it's not stated and
it's not my take on it.

> having a light on the dash to tell you that the indicator has been
switched
> on does not do that.

Nor does just being able to see the front indicators when you look out of
the window, but that's ALL that is legally required if you choose to comply
with option A, you only have to comply with either A or B not both.

You could read it as either option A or B is the cock-up, but if the
intention was to indicate a failure as you believe then why single out the
indicators?, surely the brake lights are more important and the tail lights
are definitely more important at night to prevent people rear-ending you
:cool:.

> The instalation is illegal, "profesionally" fitted or not.
> They should have used a device such as this......
> http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=13145
> Many such devices are available, that just happened to be the first on
> google came up with.

Then the vast majority of tow bars are illegal since fitters are not using
these expensive (£22.75) devices for conventionally wired cars, as the first
line of the advert says it is "to suit can-bus or multiplex wiring systems "
and is the most expensive relay they do, except for a special for the S-type
Jag. !. It also requires a wire right back to the battery which is the last
think that most fitters want to bother with.

What usually gets fitted to most cars is something like their basic buzzer
for a mere £2.95:
http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=557
at least that's all that they've fitted to my cars over the last 15 years
that I've had tow bars on.

It's only now that cars are getting smart with individual bulb failure
detection on each output of the rear CAN slave module that they've been
forced to fit something better. Of course Bosch hadn't even invented CAN
when my 109 was built :cool:.

Greg




 
>
> What usually gets fitted to most cars is something like their basic buzzer
> for a mere £2.95:
> http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=557
> at least that's all that they've fitted to my cars over the last 15 years
> that I've had tow bars on.
>
>Hi Group

I am fed up with these trailer warning buzzers. I wish the people that
thought this up would do 300 miles on the motorway with the buzzer going
every time you pull out to pass a slower vehicle.
Anyone like to tell me how to disable it on Mk iv Golf or at least quieten
it a bit?
> Alan
>
>
>


 
"Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > What usually gets fitted to most cars is something like their basic
buzzer
> > for a mere £2.95:
> > http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=557
> > at least that's all that they've fitted to my cars over the last 15
years
> > that I've had tow bars on.
> >
> >Hi Group
>
> I am fed up with these trailer warning buzzers. I wish the people that
> thought this up would do 300 miles on the motorway with the buzzer going
> every time you pull out to pass a slower vehicle.
> Anyone like to tell me how to disable it on Mk iv Golf or at least quieten
> it a bit?

My feeling exactly, they are of very little merit, I would far prefer some
warning that my tail or brake light weren't working.

Greg


 

"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > What usually gets fitted to most cars is something like their
basic
> buzzer
> > > for a mere £2.95:
> > > http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=557
> > > at least that's all that they've fitted to my cars over the last
15
> years
> > > that I've had tow bars on.
> > >
> > >Hi Group
> >
> > I am fed up with these trailer warning buzzers. I wish the people
that
> > thought this up would do 300 miles on the motorway with the buzzer
going
> > every time you pull out to pass a slower vehicle.
> > Anyone like to tell me how to disable it on Mk iv Golf or at least
quieten
> > it a bit?
>
> My feeling exactly, they are of very little merit, I would far
prefer some
> warning that my tail or brake light weren't working.
>
> Greg
>
>

Well back in the '50s my dads Jaguar had little extension pips on the
lamp lenses that protruded enough to be seen in the mirrors - neat
idea I think. Nowadays you could do the same trick with a short length
of lightguide.If paranoid enough you could even bring plastic
lightguide right to the dash board and make a neat row of dots which
should light up at the appropriate times !

AWEM


 
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 09:32:40 +0100, Andrew Mawson
<andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> wrote:

>
> "Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > >
>> > > What usually gets fitted to most cars is something like their
> basic
>> buzzer
>> > > for a mere £2.95:
>> > > http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=557
>> > > at least that's all that they've fitted to my cars over the last
> 15
>> years
>> > > that I've had tow bars on.
>> > >
>> > >Hi Group
>> >
>> > I am fed up with these trailer warning buzzers. I wish the people
> that
>> > thought this up would do 300 miles on the motorway with the buzzer
> going
>> > every time you pull out to pass a slower vehicle.
>> > Anyone like to tell me how to disable it on Mk iv Golf or at least
> quieten
>> > it a bit?
>>
>> My feeling exactly, they are of very little merit, I would far
> prefer some
>> warning that my tail or brake light weren't working.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>
> Well back in the '50s my dads Jaguar had little extension pips on the
> lamp lenses that protruded enough to be seen in the mirrors - neat
> idea I think.

ISTR m/cycles of that era being fitted with the same. Could have been
because we used to nick headlamps from abandoned cars - yes, the dip di
drop to the left - so? <G>

> Nowadays you could do the same trick with a short length
> of lightguide.

lightguide? fibre-optic of some sort?

> If paranoid enough you could even bring plastic
> lightguide right to the dash board and make a neat row of dots which
> should light up at the appropriate times !

cute.

--
William Tasso

Land Rover - 110 V8
Discovery - V8
 
On or around Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:46:59 +0100, "Greg"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Now I'm not a lawyer but I think the author (of the law) has made two rather
>silly cockups,

nothing new there then - the same flaw is in the new children and seatbelts
law as was in the old one: a "small child" is defined as being under 135cm
tall *and* under 12 years old. Since the dangers are related almost
entirely to short people in adult-sized belts which are too big for them,
the idea that this danger miraculously vanishes as soon as the child is 12
is frankly ludicrous.

BTW:

http://www.autosafeproducts.co.uk/introduction.html

a different, and possibly better, take on "suitable child restraint". I've
sent a comment to the beeb news website about the above and also about the
"children must use booster cushions" which is in the headlines. The law
does NOT say that. the phrase is "suitable child restraint", which AFAICS
is what the above is designed to be. I've ordered a small stack of 'em for
the minibus.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent.
I shall attack. - Marshal Foch (1851 - 1929)
 
On or around Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:57:51 +0100, "Greg"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>How can the buzzer be installed so that it indicates a failure of a vehicle
>indicator?, and how can a trailer bulb be added to the indicator circuit and
>NOT defeat the fast-flash feature unless very sensitive slave relays are
>added?.

The modern flasher units are clever - they're marked something like 2+1 (6)
* 21W or suchlike.

attach 2 21W bulbs and it flashes at the normal rate, and flashes the normal
indicator light on the dash. attach 3, it flashes normally and also flashes
the trailer indicator lamp on the dash. if there's only 1, they flash at
high speed.

it'll also flash the trailer light when the hazard lights are on - since
that puts 4 or 6 on.

The disco ones with extra rear indicators are 3+1(8) instead, so they detect
less than 3 bulbs, and put the trailer warning lamp on with 4 lights, if
they're working right.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world
of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without
boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994)
 
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:01:05 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

> ...
> Since the dangers are related almost
> entirely to short people in adult-sized belts which are too big for them,
> the idea that this danger miraculously vanishes as soon as the child is
> 12
> is frankly ludicrous.

agreed - completely.

> BTW:
>
> http://www.autosafeproducts.co.uk/introduction.html

heh - was wondering over the weekend if such a thing were available.
Looks just the job for a small one in the 2nd row discovery seats.

> ...
> I've ordered a small stack of 'em for
> the minibus.

good call - ordering two of right now ....

hrmm <q>The recipient of this shopping basket link is not an approved
shopping basket user. Please review your selection and try again.</q>
silly sods (paypal) - ok, switching browsers. yahay - firefox users appear
to be 'approved shopping basket users' - astonishing.

--
William Tasso

Land Rover - 110 V8
Discovery - V8
 
"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> The modern flasher units are clever - they're marked something like 2+1
(6)
> * 21W or suchlike.

Yes I'm sure they are, but the basic flashers in older vehicles aren't and
the person I was replying to was claiming it was entirely the fault of the
installer if the trailer bulbs defeated their fast-flash feature, which of
course it isn't. The only way around it is to slave them and that means
running a wire from the battery. Anyway, my 109 is staying the way Land
Rover intended it :cool:.

Greg


 
"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> http://www.autosafeproducts.co.uk/introduction.html

I think this is the brainchild of a bloke who was on the Dragons Den or
whatever they call it, he couldn't get Halfords or any other chain to accept
it and was after funding to do the marketing himself. I seem to remember
they reluctantly gave him the money and if this is indeed acceptable to the
plod for this new law they'll be crying all the way to the bank, Halfords
will just be crying :cool:.
Greg


 
On or around Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:36:49 +0100, "Greg"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> The modern flasher units are clever - they're marked something like 2+1
>(6)
>> * 21W or suchlike.
>
>Yes I'm sure they are, but the basic flashers in older vehicles aren't and
>the person I was replying to was claiming it was entirely the fault of the
>installer if the trailer bulbs defeated their fast-flash feature, which of
>course it isn't. The only way around it is to slave them and that means
>running a wire from the battery. Anyway, my 109 is staying the way Land
>Rover intended it :cool:.
>

My 109 has a thermal one - if a bulb fails then it doesn't flash at all, put
the trailer on and it flashes fast.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
Alphonse Karr (1808 - 1890) Les Guêpes, Jan 1849
 
On or around Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:01:05 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I've ordered a small stack of 'em for
>the minibus.

arrived today, commendably prompt. Easy to fit and convincing once done,
and made the belts fit 5 and 6-yo-s a treat.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
Alphonse Karr (1808 - 1890) Les Guêpes, Jan 1849
 
On or around Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:39:51 +0100, "Greg"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> http://www.autosafeproducts.co.uk/introduction.html
>
>I think this is the brainchild of a bloke who was on the Dragons Den or
>whatever they call it, he couldn't get Halfords or any other chain to accept
>it and was after funding to do the marketing himself. I seem to remember
>they reluctantly gave him the money and if this is indeed acceptable to the
>plod for this new law they'll be crying all the way to the bank, Halfords
>will just be crying :cool:.

You can buy belts with a similar gadget built-in - I had them on one of the
minibuses. However, they don't suit all applications, as the thing works by
linking the "up" and "down" sides of the belt together, which is great where
the 2 sides run up the side of the seat together but no use if the belt,
once it goes through the top mounting, disappears inside a trim panel, as
many do, especially back ones in cars.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
Alphonse Karr (1808 - 1890) Les Guêpes, Jan 1849
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Kerlaan
Freelander 1 Towbar fitment [solved]
Replies
7
Views
1K
Kerlaan
Kerlaan
N
Trailer socket/wiring harness
Replies
5
Views
575
Wildefalcon
W
Naf623
Is there any way to get the full factory spec, including options, for my 2001 D2?
Replies
4
Views
1K
Keith_L
Keith_L
Madmustang
Freelander 2 (LR2) Freelander 2 Can I just unplug the Tow Bar?
Replies
2
Views
893
Madmustang
Madmustang
P
Wiring for Tow Bar
Replies
1
Views
683
Nodge68
Nodge68
Back
Top