The Smoking MAN

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Hi spong

the device on the side of the pump is a type of waxstat. when engine is cold and ignition off it should pull the lever over to its stop which turns the camring inside the ve pump to give cold idle advance. When ignition is on there should be battery voltage to the connector on back which warms up the waxstat and allows lever to move to normal running position. if pulling lever over cures cold running issue try adjusting the cable to pull lever over when engine off and cold then power up the stat to check it fully returns. Does the truck still pull as well as it did b4?
 
adrian hogg said:
Hi spong

the device on the side of the pump is a type of waxstat. when engine is cold and ignition off it should pull the lever over to its stop which turns the camring inside the ve pump to give cold idle advance. When ignition is on there should be battery voltage to the connector on back which warms up the waxstat and allows lever to move to normal running position. if pulling lever over cures cold running issue try adjusting the cable to pull lever over when engine off and cold then power up the stat to check it fully returns. Does the truck still pull as well as it did b4?
Click to expand...

Adrian, thanks for the reply. The advance lever on the pump is sprung to the normal/warm position, and the cold start advance device needs to pull it back towards itself, if that makes sense. Also, the lever will only move to the advance position when the engine is running, I can't move it otherwise. not sure if this is part of the design or a fault.

Currently there is no wire attached to it. I have two unattached wires in the vicinity, one has 24V on at ignition, the other 0V. I wasn't sure which should be connected (or what the other was doing there!) but the 24V line would be the obvious candidate. The smoking problem started suddenly, as if something broke - or a wire fell off... For two pins I'd stick the 24V wire on it, but I didn't want to make matters worse if I guessed wrong!

Do you know if the heating element in the waxstat would give a resistance reading? I can't get any reading through it.

Final thought, when you turn the ignition on, the dashboard shows a blinking glowplug symbol - but it doesn't have glowplugs! Maybe this timer is to allow for the waxstat to warm up?
 
yes I think that would be agood idea rotary diesel injection pumps when worn slightly because it takes a bit more turning of to get injection pressure up this can retard timing slightly how does it start when realy hot we had an old hymac start perfectly when cold would not start when hot rotary pump was so worn the only way you get to start was to cool injector pump with a bucket of cold water
 
It starts readily, idles OK when cold, sounds and feels like a slight misfire when the you bring the revs up a tad (which is when it smokes, unsurprisingly) and if you bring the revs up even higher it runs smoother and the smoke clears.This would tie in my reading in the Bosch blurb that the advance beyond 2000rpm or so is controlled by the fuel pressure rather than mechanical means.
Not sure how it starts when it hot though, but my lorry mechanic took it for plating and didn't mention any problems while he was out.
 
Well, thanks for your input - I'm reasonably competent with mechanical stuff and I've had diesel engines in the past, but I've never had to this get far into the details of them, so I'm leaning a lot from yourself and others on here. I'll check on the hot starting though.
 
Spong said:
Well, thanks for your input - I'm reasonably competent with mechanical stuff and I've had diesel engines in the past, but I've never had to this get far into the details of them, so I'm leaning a lot from yourself and others on here. I'll check on the hot starting though.
Click to expand...

If they are still available, replacing the waxstat is a cheap and easy job, they do fail from time to time.
If they aren't still available, and some older ones are hard to get now, just manual operation of the arm on the pump will get you going in the mornings for the time being.
 
Turboman said:
If they are still available, replacing the waxstat is a cheap and easy job, they do fail from time to time.
If they aren't still available, and some older ones are hard to get now, just manual operation of the arm on the pump will get you going in the mornings for the time being.
Click to expand...
Replacement is the ideal, I'll need to try and con the part number out of the dealers first (they're cagey bastards, they know full well you'll go and find it cheaper elsewhere, and serve 'em right for ripping you off).

Manualizing it (!) did cross my mind when I saw mention of it in the Bosch info I have. What do you have on the boat?
 
Hi Spong

The image you shared shows the lever in the hot running position. It may be the cable is snapped inside the rubber boot or the nipple has lost its grip.When cold with zero volts a heavy spring in the alloy housing pulls the cable to move lever to advance the timing. You can safely unscrew and remove the brass fitting and take out the unit. You will see it has a little plunger in its face. Connect the unit across a battery and you will see the plunger slowly moves out. If this happens re-install and then adjust the nipple so that there is just a little slack in cable when ignition has been on for a while plunger fully out and engine warmed. When it is turned off the spring should slowly advance timing as "waxstat" cools. Not sure what electrical resistance you would see but current draw is not heavy as it is designed to be "powered" all day long after key on. When installed and ignition fed it slowly pushes against the spring and returns the lever to normal hot running position. You will find the lever on the pump very heavy to move by hand as you are turning the cam ring inside the pump against the pressure applied by the pumping plunger return springs which are fiercely heavy.

Given the pump to engine timing is correct you can safely ignore the whole lever waxstat etc in this climate. Ford Transit 2.5 di had them for years and they used to leak so we used to take the whole thing off the pump throw it in the bin fit a blank plate in place of lever assembly with no issues. In cold weather diesel timing needs to be advanced beyond ideal value as compression ignition engines struggle to produce enough heat for complete combustion when intake air and cylinder/pistons bores etc are v cold. To combat this fuel is injected a little early to give longer burn time and reduce cold idle emmissions.

The pump timing is highly unlikely to have moved unless pump itself is loose on flange. Bear in mind that the pumps internal timing is controlled by fuel pressure acting on a piston in bottom of pump and will give a small degree of advance even at idle. I have seen air in the fuel supply give symptoms as you describe because air unlike fuel is compressible causing the timing to be retarded and injection late to start.

Before getting all expensive I would try a direct feed to fuel injection pump. If you cant do this it may be worth temporarily replacing the fuel inlet pipe at the pump drive end with a clear plastic one so you can see if air is being introduced with the fuel or if it drains back over night. (dont leave it on tho it will go all brittle and horrid over time)

Regards Adrian (ex Lucas Fuel injection Engineer)
 
Spong said:
Replacement is the ideal, I'll need to try and con the part number out of the dealers first (they're cagey bastards, they know full well you'll go and find it cheaper elsewhere, and serve 'em right for ripping you off).

Manualizing it (!) did cross my mind when I saw mention of it in the Bosch info I have. What do you have on the boat?
Click to expand...

My current boat just has glow plugs. My previous boat had a waxstat, a different model to the one you have.
My researches indicated that that model was no longer available in the UK, and, as I didn't want the hassle and expense of shipping one from over the US, we decided to operate the lever manually for cold starts, and the present owners still do this.
Operation of the waxstat cold start aid is only normally necessary once a day, except in the most extreme conditions, so it is no great hardship.
 
adrian hogg said:
Hi Spong

The image you shared shows the lever in the hot running position. It may be the cable is snapped inside the rubber boot or the nipple has lost its grip.When cold with zero volts a heavy spring in the alloy housing pulls the cable to move lever to advance the timing. You can safely unscrew and remove the brass fitting and take out the unit. You will see it has a little plunger in its face. Connect the unit across a battery and you will see the plunger slowly moves out. If this happens re-install and then adjust the nipple so that there is just a little slack in cable when ignition has been on for a while plunger fully out and engine warmed. When it is turned off the spring should slowly advance timing as "waxstat" cools. Not sure what electrical resistance you would see but current draw is not heavy as it is designed to be "powered" all day long after key on. When installed and ignition fed it slowly pushes against the spring and returns the lever to normal hot running position. You will find the lever on the pump very heavy to move by hand as you are turning the cam ring inside the pump against the pressure applied by the pumping plunger return springs which are fiercely heavy.

Given the pump to engine timing is correct you can safely ignore the whole lever waxstat etc in this climate. Ford Transit 2.5 di had them for years and they used to leak so we used to take the whole thing off the pump throw it in the bin fit a blank plate in place of lever assembly with no issues. In cold weather diesel timing needs to be advanced beyond ideal value as compression ignition engines struggle to produce enough heat for complete combustion when intake air and cylinder/pistons bores etc are v cold. To combat this fuel is injected a little early to give longer burn time and reduce cold idle emmissions.

The pump timing is highly unlikely to have moved unless pump itself is loose on flange. Bear in mind that the pumps internal timing is controlled by fuel pressure acting on a piston in bottom of pump and will give a small degree of advance even at idle. I have seen air in the fuel supply give symptoms as you describe because air unlike fuel is compressible causing the timing to be retarded and injection late to start.

Before getting all expensive I would try a direct feed to fuel injection pump. If you cant do this it may be worth temporarily replacing the fuel inlet pipe at the pump drive end with a clear plastic one so you can see if air is being introduced with the fuel or if it drains back over night. (dont leave it on tho it will go all brittle and horrid over time)

Regards Adrian (ex Lucas Fuel injection Engineer)
Click to expand...

Great, lots of food for thought there..... I'll go and do some more checks tonight, hopefully get the waxstat off and see what that does.

Regarding the lever position as shown, this was when the engine was cold. From your description, I assume once the engine is shut off the lever will slowly be pulled to the right as the wax cools? I did check the cable under rubber boot, but it may have come adrift inside the alloy housing...

I hadn't considered air in the fuel line, would I get a corresponding leak somewhere too?

You said that the waxstat etc can be ignored in this climate, but it smokes every time I try it, and it's been around 15 - 20 degC down here for a while? Hope that doesn't imply a problem within the pump itself.

I'll let you know what I find.
 
Spong said:
Great, lots of food for thought there..... I'll go and do some more checks tonight, hopefully get the waxstat off and see what that does.

Regarding the lever position as shown, this was when the engine was cold. From your description, I assume once the engine is shut off the lever will slowly be pulled to the right as the wax cools? I did check the cable under rubber boot, but it may have come adrift inside the alloy housing...

I hadn't considered air in the fuel line, would I get a corresponding leak somewhere too?

You said that the waxstat etc can be ignored in this climate, but it smokes every time I try it, and it's been around 15 - 20 degC down here for a while? Hope that doesn't imply a problem within the pump itself.

I'll let you know what I find.
Click to expand...

I would imagine the smoke is just a little bit of unburnt fuel that the engine cannot burn at ambient temperatures.

Once the metal in the head and combustion chambers has reached running temperature, there should be no problem.
 
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adrian hogg said:
You will find the lever on the pump very heavy to move by hand as you are turning the cam ring inside the pump against the pressure applied by the pumping plunger return springs which are fiercely heavy.
Click to expand...
Forgot to ask, should I be able to move the lever with the engine off? This one only moves a fraction, but then can be moved to the right about 20 degs or so when it's running.
 
Turboman said:
I would imagine the smoke is just a little bit of unburnt fuel that the engine cannot burn at ambient temperatures.

Once the metal in the head and combustion chambers has reached running temperature, there should be no problem.
Click to expand...
Yes, it does clear once it's warmed up, but it's pretty awful until then. It does seem to need some advance at startup.
You underway again yet?
 
Has this engine got a mechanical lift pump? If no then the whole sytem is under vacuum from the injection pump inlet right back to the tank it can suck in air without any noticeable leaks.

The problem is the people have been known to time up the pump with the cold idle lever in its advanced position meaning the pump to engine timing is actually slightly retarded which can be ok until the KSB (cold idle advance) packs up then you get typical retarded diesle symptoms ie whit/blue spoke misfire etc. If it runs fine with lever held over and you only need the waxstat just read the pump number off the side of the pump it will be ten digits typically starting 0460 4..... and contact a good fuel injection specialist like Feather Diesel or Carwoods I sure they will be able to supply it.
 
adrian hogg said:
Has this engine got a mechanical lift pump? If no then the whole sytem is under vacuum from the injection pump inlet right back to the tank it can suck in air without any noticeable leaks.

The problem is the people have been known to time up the pump with the cold idle lever in its advanced position meaning the pump to engine timing is actually slightly retarded which can be ok until the KSB (cold idle advance) packs up then you get typical retarded diesle symptoms ie whit/blue spoke misfire etc. If it runs fine with lever held over and you only need the waxstat just read the pump number off the side of the pump it will be ten digits typically starting 0460 4..... and contact a good fuel injection specialist like Feather Diesel or Carwoods I sure they will be able to supply it.
Click to expand...

Hope you are right. No one seemed to have one for my Ford XLD at all when I needed one.
 
just a thought some early MAN engines had a solenoid operated thermostart in the inlet manifold which should warm up then pour neat diesel over the element to literally light a fire in the manifold for cold starting. Have you tried blanking off the diesel feed to it if u have one? If it is dripping or not heating it will smoke like mad. If the pipe work permits try removing from manifold and connecting just the fuel line with it lifted out of the way so you can see if it is dripping fuel into the inlet.. I wouldn't connect the electrical wire tho because if it does work you gonna have a fire.
 
adrian hogg said:
just a thought some early MAN engines had a solenoid operated thermostart in the inlet manifold which should warm up then pour neat diesel over the element to literally light a fire in the manifold for cold starting. Have you tried blanking off the diesel feed to it if u have one? If it is dripping or not heating it will smoke like mad. If the pipe work permits try removing from manifold and connecting just the fuel line with it lifted out of the way so you can see if it is dripping fuel into the inlet.. I wouldn't connect the electrical wire tho because if it does work you gonna have a fire.
Click to expand...
Yes, there is a thermostart, @8ha did mention that too. I had a look the other night but the pipe to it is solid from the solenoid valve to the manifold. But I think from the pump to the solenoid is rubber, so I could clamp it there for starters.
Would the solenoid for it be thermostat controlled, or would it be on a timer? I know you don't know this particular engine, but I'm wondering what usual practice might be.
 
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