TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

Ive read of late quite a bit about running diesel engines on Vegetable
oil. Some people seem to say just do it 100%, though this i believe
requires a bit of engine tweaking, others make a 5% - 10% diesel / oil
mix (only 5-10% oil), pour it in and just turn the key.

Different oils seem to perform better than others and non-direct
injection systems are supposedly better than direct injection due to
the higher temperatures required with DI.

I am looking at this purley from a cost saving point of view...

I have a 200Tdi 90 and my friend has a 300Tdi disco

Has anyone or is anyone running on vegetable oil? Which brand / type
of oil?

I know strictly there are tax issues but Im not concerned about those
in this thread, only interested in longevity of engines and pitfalls
and problems associated.


Thanks
Jon

Jon <[email protected]> wrote:

>I know strictly there are tax issues

Really? In germany just the low sales tax for food is applied, 7%

"Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I know strictly there are tax issues
>
> Really? In germany just the low sales tax for food is applied, 7%

The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of vegetable
oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate, and send the
money off in a little envelope to parliament house to pay for their bloody
cocktail parties.

When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
start using these alternative fuels.

anyway, back to the point, vegetable oil can be run straight (as in straight
from the bottle you keep in your pantry) if it is pre-heated to about 80
degrees C, and used in an indirect injection diesel motor. as you stated
jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil must
be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the injectors
better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have web
addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.

Sam.

Samuel wrote:

>
> The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of vegetable
> oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate
Its "only" 28p /litre AFAIK, which IS less than the petrol duty
> When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
> start using these alternative fuels.
Abso-'kin-lutely.
> I have web addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
Please, that would be interesting, we have the forms from the excise to
pay up, but we were only intending to run mixed 66/33.

Steve

"Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote:

>The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of vegetable
>oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate, and send the
>money off in a little envelope to parliament house to pay for their bloody
>cocktail parties.

They could wait forever, when I would be asked to do so

>When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
>start using these alternative fuels.

In germany they even do not encourage the peoople any more to use bio
diesel, "rapsmethylester" is the german word for the stuff. When this
stuff was more expensive, they told to spend those few cents for the
environment, but nowadays, when costs for fuel explode and biodiesel
is much cheaper, they do not encourage to use it any more; it just
does not bring enough money :-(

>anyway, back to the point, vegetable oil can be run straight (as in straight
>from the bottle you keep in your pantry) if it is pre-heated to about 80
>degrees C, and used in an indirect injection diesel motor. as you stated

Our Defender 90 2.5TD just runs with it like with normal diesel during
the summer time.

>jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil must
>be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the injectors
>better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have web
>addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
>
>Sam.
>

"Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of
vegetable
> >oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate, and send
the
> >money off in a little envelope to parliament house to pay for their
bloody
> >cocktail parties.
>
> They could wait forever, when I would be asked to do so
>
> >When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
> >start using these alternative fuels.
>
> In germany they even do not encourage the peoople any more to use bio
> diesel, "rapsmethylester" is the german word for the stuff. When this
> stuff was more expensive, they told to spend those few cents for the
> environment, but nowadays, when costs for fuel explode and biodiesel
> is much cheaper, they do not encourage to use it any more; it just
> does not bring enough money :-(
>
> >anyway, back to the point, vegetable oil can be run straight (as in
straight
> >from the bottle you keep in your pantry) if it is pre-heated to about 80
> >degrees C, and used in an indirect injection diesel motor. as you stated
>
> Our Defender 90 2.5TD just runs with it like with normal diesel during
> the summer time.
>
> >jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil
must
> >be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the
injectors
> >better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have
web
> >addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
> >
> >Sam.
> >

G'day Ralph.

i think you're confusing bio-diesel with straight vegetable oil, or SVO for
short.

# bio diesel is vegetable oil that has gone through some process
(trans-estrification or something) which seperates the oil into biodiesel
and glycerine. this stuff can be use in most diesel motors without any
modification.

# SVO is just that. nothing done to it, just the oil that is pressed out
of vegies. to run any diesel motor on this, the oil must be pre-heated and
flushed out with diesel (or bio-diesel) before turning motor off to prevent
the oil congealing in the pump etc.

hope this is helpful, and i'll get those websites tomorrow.

Sam.

"Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote:


>G'day Ralph.
>
>i think you're confusing bio-diesel with straight vegetable oil, or SVO for
>short.

No, I did not, because it is the only "vegetable" fuel what is
relatively available throughout the whole contry, and the only "bio
fuel" recognised as such by the politicians.

We use normal "svo" oil, without going through some processing, it is
the same stuff you put on your salad, and taxes on it are the low
german food sales tax.

The bio diesel stuff has some solvent characteristics and may cause
trouble with some plastic parts in the fuel system, so we did not yet
dare using it with our Defender. Normal diesel is almost 1.20 EUR
these days, bio diesel is from 90ct up to 1EUR-something, svo is 70ct.

When we did not find a gas station but a super market, it was pure fun
buying 15 bottles of salad oil and refilling the car with it on the
parking lot We caught some strange looks, as you can imagine.

>Sam.

>
>>jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil must
>>be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the injectors
>>better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have web
>>addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
>>
>>Sam.
>>

Looks like there are a few knowledgable people in this topic around
here...

Generally speaking, it would seem as though some form of pre-heater is
required to heat the oil before it hits the injector pump to run 100%
oil, along with a 2 tank system to allow the running on pure diesel at
the start and end of each journey. I will discount this idea then.



Working on the assumption that some saving in £££'s is better than no
saving

Relating back to 200 & 300tdi's, these are direct injection units and
this seemingly is not ideal for 100% oil motors. But can vegetuble
oil from the supermarket be used as a Diesel Oil mix (5% - 10%) with
no modifications? Even 5 Litres into every tank on my 90 will make a
significant saving over a year.

Jon

Thanks for that question, it was one that I was planning to ask!

I have a 200Tdi and I am hoping to change to a Defender diesel (not
sure what age yet). The reason is two fold - more room required for
dogs and the 200Tdi doesn't have enough space for the dogs and a
separate 5 gallon diesel tank (see comment later).

I have found one website that offers a conversion for around £475
(DIY). The only thing you need to find room for is a separate 5 gallon
tank of diesel that is used to start and run the engine until the
vegetable oil is hot/fluid enough.

I was planning on approaching our local chippies for their waste oil.
It is suggeted that it is filtered by a 1 micron filter. Does anybody
have any experince with using re-cycled oil and whether or not chippies
will charge you for it, give it away willingly or refuse to as they
have to meet government requirements for recycling?

Cheers

Peter

Jon and other fellow listers Hi from Greece,

I have been using waste olive oil from our house and my wife's mother house
for more than 3 years now.
My wife collects the oil in big glass bottles and lets it stay motionless
for around a month (or at least one week).
She then filters it using a filtering cloth and they we add it to the fuel
tank up to a 10% ratio (10% waste olive oil and 90% diesel fuel)

I have no problem with the fuel pump, injectors of the way the engine
operates but I avoid using this 10% of olive oil when temperature is
expected to fall below 5 degrees Celsius (which very seldom does in the area
of Greece where I live).

The engine actually operates more smoothly, seems to pull better and yes you
can slightly smell of fried potatoes from the exhaust even with just a 10%
of wasted olive oil.

Now that diesel prices have sky rocketed here in Greece (1.020 Euros/lt.)
using the waste olive oil (or any other wasted oil from our kitchen) makes
even more sense.

Take care
Pantelis


"Jon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> >>jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil
must
> >>be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the
injectors
> >>better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have
web
> >>addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
> >>
> >>Sam.
> >>
>
> Looks like there are a few knowledgable people in this topic around
> here...
>
> Generally speaking, it would seem as though some form of pre-heater is
> required to heat the oil before it hits the injector pump to run 100%
> oil, along with a 2 tank system to allow the running on pure diesel at
> the start and end of each journey. I will discount this idea then.
>
>
>
> Working on the assumption that some saving in £££'s is better than no
> saving
>
> Relating back to 200 & 300tdi's, these are direct injection units and
> this seemingly is not ideal for 100% oil motors. But can vegetuble
> oil from the supermarket be used as a Diesel Oil mix (5% - 10%) with
> no modifications? Even 5 Litres into every tank on my 90 will make a
> significant saving over a year.
>
> Jon
>

I know it would be illegal but......

could you run OK on heating oil? off road of course!!!!

"Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I know strictly there are tax issues
>
> Really? In germany just the low sales tax for food is applied, 7%

Jon wrote:

> Has anyone or is anyone running on vegetable oil? Which brand / type
> of oil?
>
> I know strictly there are tax issues but Im not concerned about those
> in this thread, only interested in longevity of engines and pitfalls
> and problems associated.

Didn't know where to post this, but it's something I stumbled across a
fair few months ago and may be of use to folks reading this thread with
interest

http://www.bio-power.co.uk/exchanger.htm

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

so Pantelis Giamarellos was, like...
> Now that diesel prices have sky rocketed here in Greece (1.020
> Euros/lt.) using the waste olive oil (or any other wasted oil from
> our kitchen) makes even more sense.

Skyrocketed to ?1.02 per litre!!! In GB terms, that's 69p. We are now
looking at 99.9p/litre for diesel and rising - that would be ?1.47 in Greek.

If the increase was the result of market conditions following Katrina, I
could accept this. But the majority of the price is tax, which means that
logically the majority of the increase is tax too. The price per barrel
goes up a bit, the price at the pump goes up a lot. I have seen it
estimated that if prices remain at their current levels (and who doubts that
they will, regardless of the price of crude), the Treasury will benefit to
the tune of £1bn over the course of a year. That's £1bn of extra taxation
that never went through Parliament, never was voted for in an election -
just a windfall for Gordon Brown, which will no doubt go to fund a few more
speed cameras or something.

Not having a go, Pantelis, but this really hacks me off.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

I have used BURNING OIL in my landrover and it works but don't be fooled you need to add oil to it as burning oil has not got enought lubricants in it to satisfy your engine. OFF ROADING ONLY...

There is a small power loss but a great money gain...ha ha.

I have also used paraffin also have to add oil to this. There is at least a 30% power loss with paraffin. NOT advised I broke a injector pump with paraffin. I was not adding oil to it.....

I also have used vegatable oil but I just do a 30% Veg and 70% Diesel mix it runs quieter smoother and is more powerfull. Just goto your local supermarket and buy 3 Litre of vegatable oil and add it to quater tank of fuel and go for a drive. This will do no harm at all and you can make your mind up if you notice a difference.

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Skyrocketed to ?1.02 per litre!!! In GB terms, that's 69p. We are now
> looking at 99.9p/litre for diesel and rising - that would be ?1.47 in
> Greek.


You'll have to put this into perspective; firstly, Greek wages are nowhere
near as good as UK ones and secondly, UK fuel prices are just ludicrous and
therefore cannot be included in sensible comparisons, so you'll have to
compare Greek prices with other continental European ones. Still, I think
that Greece has one of the cheapest average fuel prices within the EU, so
it's not that tragic, even though it has one of the lowest average wages
(pre-expansion) as well. Regarding Britain, what's going on in this country
with pricing is beyond me and I'm not only referring to fuel (being Greek
myself, the prices I see in the UK are even more impressive).

What really annoys me is the Americans complaining that prices reached 3
dollars a gallon. A GALLON!! Mind you, their cars probably make a V8-powered
Landie seem frugal.


Geo

On or around Mon, 5 Sep 2005 20:37:12 +0100, "StaffBull"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I know it would be illegal but......
>
> could you run OK on heating oil? off road of course!!!!
>

not good for the injector pumps, but yes.

I gather adding a bit of engine oil to it helps lube the pump better.

Mind, sodding heating oil is about 3x what it used to be now.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

"StaffBull" <[email protected]> wrote:

> could you run OK on heating oil? off road of course!!!!

Of course, this would be no problem. Just in case someone has a lokk
at your fuel and finds out that it is coloured red you are in serios
trouble! Heating oil in germany is always red...

so Geo was, like...
> "Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Skyrocketed to ?1.02 per litre!!! In GB terms, that's 69p. We are
>> now looking at 99.9p/litre for diesel and rising - that would be
>> ?1.47 in Greek.

> What really annoys me is the Americans complaining that prices
> reached 3 dollars a gallon. A GALLON!! Mind you, their cars probably
> make a V8-powered Landie seem frugal.

Mind you, US gallons are *tiny*

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

"Geo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Skyrocketed to ?1.02 per litre!!! In GB terms, that's 69p. We are now
> > looking at 99.9p/litre for diesel and rising - that would be ?1.47 in
> > Greek.

>
> What really annoys me is the Americans complaining that prices reached 3
> dollars a gallon. A GALLON!! Mind you, their cars probably make a
V8-powered
> Landie seem frugal.

I know a few americans, and the fuel prices are hitting them hard,

the people i know drive RV's, the size of a coach to us, but normal over
there, thing is these things have 200 gallon fuel tanks, and average 7 mpg
(american gallons)

So when 2 years ago they were filling their tanks up with diesel at or below
1 dollar per gallon, in some places it's almost 4 dollars a gallon,
that's a heck of a jump, 200 dollars to 800 dollars to fill the tanks up in
a couple of years.

when put into perspective you can see the huge increase, just because we've
been paying the equivelent of around 6 dollars a gallon for the last year
dosent matter, we've been paying that ammount for ages,

we'll soon be moaning if our prices went upto 4 quid a litre i guess.

>when put into perspective you can see the huge increase, just because we've
>been paying the equivelent of around 6 dollars a gallon for the last year
>dosent matter, we've been paying that ammount for ages,

Have you not noticed the 20-25% increase in the last 12 months or so?

I paid 99.9 for diesel yesterday, same time last year it was about
80p.


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'03 Volvo V70