Td5 Engine problem

They say "A problem shared is a problem halved". Also said "A problem shared - two people have a problem!"

My 2002 Disco Td5 came to a clattering and smokey halt two weeks ago.
When I turned the key off the engine continued running - engaged 4th gear and stopped it!

The Land Rover dealer was stumped - had never seen the problem before (maybe being Southern Ireland?) - replaced the Injector seals and gave it back on Wednesday after I paid €620!

3 days later (last Saturday) the same thing has happened.

Can anyone help with guidance as to what the actual problem is so that I can point the garage in the right direction? At the moment they are saying it will need a new Cylinder head (not cheap I fear!) and I would like them to get it right!

It could very well be they didn’t prepare the washers properly and you have the same fault.

A copper washer direct from the stamping machine is rarely flat, often has burs and other defects which reduce there ability to seal “out of the box”.

I personally would take them all back out, hang them on a piece of wire and heat them all up RED hot, then plunge them into cold water, this will soften them (anneal).

Then with a brand new file lying down I would push the washer along it once, then turn it 90degrees and do exactly the same thing again, if done properly you will now have a soft washer with a crosshatch.

I would then get some RED hermatite (not hylomar not green hermatite) and with a little on your finger rub it into the washers, this will fill the crosshatch.

Let it dry for a while, make sure the injector is immaculate (clean with methanol if needed) and make sure everything is dirt free, not a trace.

Now reseat the injectors with your perfect seal washers and give it a go.

Thanks for that - I'll send it along! It sounds a bit technical for them - if they can't take it out of the box and fit it "as is" they get a bit flustered (like me) but you have described it well and with simple words!
I'll let you know how we get on.
Amazing how quickly the old "Engineers" tricks are lost these days!
Thanks and I'll get back
Jolly

DO NOT USE ANY SEALING COMPOUNDS ANYWHERE NEAR THE FUEL SYSTEM.The proper injector washers are fine,as long as the injector recesses were cleaned properly they will seal.Take it back to the dealer and suggest they contact LR dealer Tech support if they cant diagnose whats wrong.Leaking injector washers usually cause the engine to stop as combustion gases are forced into the fuel rail - these gases wont allow proper injection and behave like there is are in the system as when changing a fuel filter.The upper injector O rings leaking cause a rise in sump oil and can blow oily fumes through the breather which the engine can injest and run off.(Same symptoms when the heads crack from the fuel rail out.)
A failing head gasket or turbo seals can also end up feeding engine oil through the inlet which the engine will run off too.
Have you checked the oil level ?

eightinavee said:

The proper injector washers are fine.

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I disagree, local LR dealer: some stupid price for injector washers, they had burs on them, and they were slightly domed, and they hand't been annealed.

Trouble is the lower washers are very unlikely to cause the issue with Skippers car anyway.Proper diagnosis is what is missing,which the dealer can get help with via E-mail/phone.They have taken money off him to effect a repair which should be to manufacturers standards,which will be warrantied.If they then take it apart and find that someone has been stupid enough to assemble the injectors with red hermatite they will void,(Quite rightly) any warranty given on their work.
Their original repair has not cured the issue,it is only fair to give them a chance to put it right - if only so they gain experience for the next time it happens.

This is a lot more complex than I thought - I will have more detailed info later today as the Garage gets the beast apart to check out the head gasket and cylinder head.
There was plenty of oil in the engine - and it has a more than full service history - it has always been serviced more often than the book said; last done 3,000 miles ago! Knowing my luck at the moment it will be the most expensive of any possible problem!
I will let you know where the the dealer reckons we stand when he gives me the "news" at lunchtime - i hope I still have an appetite.

Bad News - apparently a crack in the cylinder head is the cause of all my woes. The cost? Around €4,000.00 !

I think the word I'm looking for is "Bugger!!"

Skipper Jolly said:

Bad News - apparently a crack in the cylinder head is the cause of all my woes. The cost? Around €4,000.00 !

I think the word I'm looking for is "Bugger!!"

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It seems to be a bit of a problem with TD5 engines. Mine went too, although symptoms totally different. If you are repairing it there's a lot of advice on here somewhere....

Land Rover say the head CAN'T be reconditioned, as it has a special finish and can't be skimmed. Some people on the forum have had the head skimmed OK though. My mechanic said he wouldn't fit a recon head as you can't tell their condition (people weld up the cracks and stuff). Whichtever you do, make sure they use METAL dowels not plastic when they put it back (mine came with plastic ones, and that was quite recently).

You could buy another TD5 for that money now couldn't you???

Good luck with it...

£4000 is twice what it should cost here in the UK,the heads can be had for around £1000.The labour in changing the head is not massive,even if the head is bare without valves etc.Is there no decent independants anywhere near ?

eightinavee said:

£4000 is twice what it should cost here in the UK,the heads can be had for around £1000.The labour in changing the head is not massive,even if the head is bare without valves etc.Is there no decent independants anywhere near ?

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Does seem a bit steep, but there's quite a lot of work involved. My head cost £1080 plus vat a year ago, but extra parts were another £320 and with fitting and £400+ vat the whole thing came to £3000, which seemed reasonable for a good job.

Btw get a new injector loom fitted and the EGR valve removed at the same time. Much easier when the head's off.

I think he mean's 4K euro which is about £3200. Still a fortune though. My TD5 was £3995 for the whole car 7 months ago.

You can get 2nd hand engines on ebay for about a grand. Delivery to ROI wouldn't be too bad, if it's £65 - £85 to N. Ireland.

Swapping a TD5 engine isn't a big deal, from what I've read. Some people take em out to do the clutch.

Maybe someone else could advise on the engine cost swap.

Haynes gives instructions on how to do it DIY, so it couldn't be too bad.

Cheers

Andy

I took the engine out of my 2001 Td5 a few months ago to replace flywheel , clutch etc .
I have an engine crane and managed to do everything on my own .
The job is not too bad - I suppose a lot depends on previous experience .
Even the wiring etc wasn't too tricky - though I did use masking tape to mark a lot of the wires etc . I also took my time and cleaned everything well including using taps etc to clean up threads - a great help when reassembling .
When I had everything back it started first time which was a pleasant surprise .

andymach23 said:

I think he mean's 4K euro which is about £3200. Still a fortune though. My TD5 was £3995 for the whole car 7 months ago.

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That was my earlier point - buy another one and canibalise - they are so chep at present!

The 620 euro's is very expensive to get the injector washers etc replaced.

I just had the same done with oil and filters changed plus a new PAS steering hose from the reservoir to pump fitted (I supplied hose but not fluid) for £226.

A great job done by a local garage who took loads of care totally cleaning everything up before the new washers were fitted to the injectors etc.

Unless the dealer is going to take most of that 620 off of the price for any other work I would be finding a decent indy / local garage to do the head if it is required.

The problem over here is that the Dealers rarely work on anything out of warranty, and with a high staff turnover that means they no longer have any idea about the TD5 - they don't even sell them 2nd had any more! That may be the same over there, in which case a non-dealer specialist is likely to do it better as well as cheaper.That said, your quote in Euros is pretty close to what my indie in Kent charged, so they're charging less for labour than our dealers.
It's probably down to how much you like the car - on paper it wasn't really worth doing mine (it's a 99 model), but I like it, intend to keep it, prices were a bit higher back then, and all in all I thought it was worth it for another 10000 miles or so of Landrover fun!

I appreciate all the info - Disco's and their like over here are "luxury" vehicles and, as they are not "Commercial", attract a staggering "Vehicle Registration Tax" - which is why a new Disco over here is around €25,000 more than in the U.K.. Therefore we can afford to be milked for every last sou!
The worst of it all is that VAT is 21% and that makes a major difference to everything including the hourly rate for the mechanic.
Also we are talking in Euros!
I have subsequently sourced all the parts from England (Macdonald Land Rover Engines) and cannot speak highly enough about their service and information. They are shipping all the parts to the dealer in Cork at the same price as the dealer would have charged for just the head! All I am paying for in Ireland is the fitting!
Sorry to say but as soon as I can I'm selling it and going for a Series 3 diesel; no ECU or computers - just something a dunce like me can fix!
Thanks again for the info - maybe I should have been more adventurous and joined Landyzone a few years earlier - it would have saved me a packet!