TD4 Injector Degradation Statement Assistance

Long story short(ish), I bought an 05 plate TD4 from an independent dealer in February and noticed after two or three weeks that there was excessive black smoke under power/load, and as time went on the vehicle started idling roughly and occasionally cutting out and sometimes wouldn't start. The car went back to the dealer and I detailed the problems in writing saying what was happening and I suspected split hoses, egr valve, maf (or other) sensor or most likely the injectors. All the usual TD4 stuff.

They had the car for a week, did nothing and fobbed me off saying there was nothing wrong. The 3 month (worthless) warranty then ran out. The problems persisted and got worse until I had to go to a local specialist last week. End result, four rebuilt injectors and a £1000 bill.

Now for the assistance if anyone can help? I'm in the process of writing a letter to the dealer requesting compensation under the Sale of Goods and Services Act (fit for purpose, free from defect etc) and threatening a small claims action if they don't compensate. The difficulty is that I need to prove that the fault was present when I purchased the vehicle. I need to write a statement that says something along the lines of 'these problems build up over x miles/years' etc and 'the typical degradation timetable of injectors is xyz' etc and 'therefore the defects were clearly present before the sale of the vehicle' etc. I don't want to say anything inaccurate as I may well need to raise a claim with the County Court, so any pointers on a couple of sentences to add to my initial letter would be handy.

I've had a good butchers at the what to do if you've bought a pile of crap thread which has been handy, but if anyone can help with this specific point it would be much appreciated.

The mileage at purchase was 70,900. The mileage when I contacted the dealer and booked the car in was 72,900 and had risen to 73,500 by the time they looked at it.

The mileage when I had to get them replaced locally was around 75,500.

I knew I should have bought a proper landrover! tsk

Think the time to complain was when they said there is nothing wrong with it even when you clearly knew there was...did they say that in writing? having driven it a further 2000 miles before actual repair does you no favours.

Sale of goods act, satisfactory quality and fit for purpose upto 6 years

If my house roof leaks, I call a builder, not a priest.
If my teeth hurt, I speak to a dentist, not an electrician.
Likewise, if I need legal advice, I speak to a solicitor, not a bunch of randoms on the internet.

Its a simple motto that guarantees that I get accurate, relevant advice, not a load of ifs buts and maybes from armchair experts. Granted, some people may offer accurate advice, but how do you KNOW with absolute certainty who is right and who is speaking out of their hoop? The one thing you need in a legal situation is absolute certainty.

dave21478 said:

If my house roof leaks, I call a builder, not a priest.
If my teeth hurt, I speak to a dentist, not an electrician.
Likewise, if I need legal advice, I speak to a solicitor, not a bunch of randoms on the internet.

Its a simple motto that guarantees that I get accurate, relevant advice, not a load of ifs buts and maybes from armchair experts. Granted, some people may offer accurate advice, but how do you KNOW with absolute certainty who is right and who is speaking out of their hoop? The one thing you need in a legal situation is absolute certainty.

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They're asking for specific injector fault information....would a solicitor be much help?

Complaint to solicitor is that they fobbed you off but how?

He is asking how to word a letter stating his intentions and threatening court. Its besides the point though, as "some people on the internet say...." isnt really much use as evidence of anything to anyone. anywhere. ever.

What he needs in an independant vehicle inspection report, which a solicitor would tell him. However, since he has driven the car 5000 miles since buying it, his chances of a successful claim range from bugger all to ####ing zero. Which a solicitor will also tell him.

fanatic said:

Sale of goods act, satisfactory quality and fit for purpose upto 6 years

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Or till the warrenty runs out?

My freelander has done 140000 miles without injector replacement. Black smoke under load was treated with Millers injector cleaner for a few tankloads and a rover ron tuning module. Little smoke now except on cold winter days which I suspect to be unburnt fuel until engine is up to temp.

Granted I didn't have the rough running, though an injector full of crud would do that and an injector cleaner treatment could be just the thing to remove said crud....

Thanks for your replies folks

For info, I've sought legal advice, and under the sale of goods act, 'the burden of proof' lies with me to prove that the defects were present at the time the vehicle was sold. That's the basis of my specific question RE the injectors really. I wish to seek compensation from the garage, ideally without going to court. That is clearly a last resort and I have a solicitor primed on a no win no fee basis should I not get a satisfactory outcome.

I'm asking a technical question here about TD4 injectors

I'm just trying to get a description correct in my initial letter as advised by a solicitor to ensure there is no ambiguity. The way I see it was that there was a defect present which the garage had a fair opportunity to fix, but decided not to and i'm informed I may have a case.

For example, I'm after technical advice like basically, once you get signs such as rough running and heavy smoke, how long has there been a fault. etc etc

For info I've got a full diagnostic report at the recent repair.

Did you have the original injectors repaired ? or are they sat in storage somewhere ? Id GUESS they will be vital evidence if they are the cause of your mechanical problems. If you still have the original and unmolested injectors get them professionally examined by EXPERTS and ask then to prepare a written report on their condition currently and how long in service they will have been developing this fault.

Yeah, well good luck with that.
The range of variables here is so large, I don't even know where to begin. You are not going to find some handy wee chart that says "smoke starts at xxx mileage, rough running starts at xxxx mileage and they require replacement xx miles after that".
For example, the chap above has done 140k with no injector trouble. Yet I had all four reconditioned earlier this year on similar mileage. Why did I have mine reconditioned? I had to remove them for other repairs and damaged 2 when removing them so got 2 used replacements from a completely unknown engine. I had all 4 inspected to check they were performing similarly and all 4 were found to be in need of repair, despite no symptoms of rough running or bad starting from my existing pair.

dave21478 said:

Yeah, well good luck with that.
The range of variables here is so large, I don't even know where to begin. You are not going to find some handy wee chart that says "smoke starts at xxx mileage, rough running starts at xxxx mileage and they require replacement xx miles after that".
For example, the chap above has done 140k with no injector trouble. Yet I had all four reconditioned earlier this year on similar mileage. Why did I have mine reconditioned? I had to remove them for other repairs and damaged 2 when removing them so got 2 used replacements from a completely unknown engine. I had all 4 inspected to check they were performing similarly and all 4 were found to be in need of repair, despite no symptoms of rough running or bad starting from my existing pair.

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I agree with this statement totally BUT to my mind you get around the variables buy being SPECIFIC to your own vehicle. After all your claim is based on your individual vehicle.
If you have rebuilt/repaired your original injectors you may well have restored your car to a good mechanical condition but at same time you may have destroyed your only physical evidence.

My injectors were refurbished and I have the parts they took out in case they need to be inspected.

The report from my local garage was;

'All injectors failed on test for low idle fuel, deliveries on no's 2, 3 & 4 failed on maximum deliveries. All injectors failed on start of injector pressure to high'

I also have the full test figures.

They rebuilt them and the engine now runs like new.

I think what I'm asking is, as this fault was clearly present at 73,000 miles, it will have taken a considerable time to manifest itself? How can I say this in correct mechanical speak that is difficult for the garage to dispute? I believe that as I purchased the vehicle at 71,000 miles and I reported the problem to them at 73,000 miles it must surely have been building up for a considerable period before the 73,000 mark? Would injectors go from fully serviceable to preventing an engine from starting and running in 2,000 miles?

Is this too much of a 'how long is a peice of string' question?

Sadly I didn't notice the smoke until after owning the car for about three weeks, and that's when the running problems began to occur.

On the plus side, I can recommend Richard Bros of Redruth for you Cornish based people

kernowsvenski said:

My injectors were refurbished and I have the parts they took out in case they need to be inspected.

The report from my local garage was;

'All injectors failed on test for low idle fuel, deliveries on no's 2, 3 & 4 failed on maximum deliveries. All injectors failed on start of injector pressure to high'

I also have the full test figures.

They rebuilt them and the engine now runs like new.

I think what I'm asking is, as this fault was clearly present at 73,000 miles, it will have taken a considerable time to manifest itself? How can I say this in correct mechanical speak that is difficult for the garage to dispute? I believe that as I purchased the vehicle at 71,000 miles and I reported the problem to them at 73,000 miles it must surely have been building up for a considerable period before the 73,000 mark? Would injectors go from fully serviceable to preventing an engine from starting and running in 2,000 miles?

Sadly I didn't notice the smoke until after owning the car for about three weeks, and that's when the running problems began to occur.

On the plus side, I can recommend Richard Bros of Redruth for you Cornish based people

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You need a highly qualified mechanical engineer, whose qualifications cannot be disputed. Approach a local university....if you can get a professor of mechanical engineering interested who knows !
To my NONE legally trained mind... you have successfully repaired your car and proved the car to be essentially good (with exception of injectors) so you can claim had they properly checked the car prior to sale OR examined it DURING its warranty when you first reported the engine problem they could have REASONABLY found the prob and repaired it themselves. Your saving grace may well be that you reported problems DURING warranty.

If you have spoken to a solicitor, it should be them advising you on this.

"how long is a piece of string" doesnt even begin to cover the situation. You reported the problem after owning the car quite a while and the symptoms were excessive smoke - this is completely subjective and could have been due to anything from failing injectors down to a dirty air filter....

Trying to find out how long the injectors had been faulty prior to being refurbished will require a crystal ball.
I am sorry to sound so negative about all this, but you need to understand exactly how little chance you have of finding out an answer that you want that carries enough weight to help your claim.

dave21478 said:

If you have spoken to a solicitor, it should be them advising you on this.

"how long is a piece of string" doesnt even begin to cover the situation. You reported the problem after owning the car quite a while and the symptoms were excessive smoke - this is completely subjective and could have been due to anything from failing injectors down to a dirty air filter....

Trying to find out how long the injectors had been faulty prior to being refurbished will require a crystal ball.
I am sorry to sound so negative about all this, but you need to understand exactly how little chance you have of finding out an answer that you want that carries enough weight to help your claim.

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Again I in my opinion (untrained legally) agree with this. See a solicitor, your local trading standards people and maybe the citizens advice bureau.
I think a legal battle you may well loose may cost more than the injectors cost to be refurbed

You should have offered the information from the repair garage about the injectors to the seller, prior to the injector repair. If you didn't do this then it goes against you. One garages word against another's isn't enough, for work they state needs doing and have carried out. As said above you need an inspectors report. If you call the AA/RAC they will be able to help with this, and perhaps may have someone with the knowledge you need. You need to get a report which is fully supported should the case go to court. that means the report creator will go to court to support the report they give, along with the proof they know what they're talking about.

The main problem you face is "fair wear and tear" v's the vehicle age/mileage. I don't know about injectors (they squirt diesel) but I would be surprised to have 4 injectors fail at the same time, as peeps don't come on ere with that fault. I've tried doing similar to you previously. I tried to get money back for failed/problem parts. It's difficult to say the least. The question you asked at the start should be answered in the inspectors report/summery.

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Thanks for the responses guys.

I'm basing my claim on the fact that I made the garage aware of the problem (in detail, in writing) within the warranty period, and they then had fair opportunity to investigate and repair. They denied there was a problem and left me to my own devices. I'm confident that four injectors failing after 70k-ish miles is not a 'fair wear and tear' issue.Bosch and Delph expect their injectors to last for the lifetime of the engine. They are not friction surfaces, rubber belts, hoses, bearings etc. It's just a case of can I prove that the fault was there at the time of purchase which granted, seems difficult now.

However, the facts indisputable facts are,

Bought the car with 71k miles on it.
Noticed an issue after about 3 weeks of ownership, and reported problems in detail to the dealer after 8 weeks and 2k miles of ownership. (is 2000 miles a particularly long time?)
Car was booked in and dealer Dealer had car for a week, did nothing, said they couldn't find see fault (despite me detailing in writing what it might have been).
Warranty Expired a week later.
After six months and two weeks of ownership, with 75k on the clock, I had to utilize the services of a local specialist to fix a problem I'd made the dealer aware of.

Bosch and Delph expect their injectors to last for the lifetime of the engin

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Not a chance, that may well be their expectations but in the real world with cheap ****e city diesel they will never last the life of the engine.

We change injector under manufacturers warranty all the time....but one at a time. Warranty wont pay for more than one as they will only fail one at a time

I dont think you have a snowballs chance of winning this....

If I was the selling I could come up with a good few reasons for smoke and some more about how you ruined the injectors....must have put cooking oil / pertol in the tank....you cant prove you didnt.

You should have went back to the selling garage/got trading standards involved. Even after the warranty was out the fact you reported it before would have meant youd have the full backing of trading standards behind you.