Starting Diesels with no heater plugs

Andrew Mawson · Nov 20, 2005

Got my big (100KVA) generator yesterday which has a Ford 2704ET 6
litre 6 cylinder turbo charged diesel engine driving it. Always said
I'd NEVER have a Ford and now I have one!!! Seems that these engines
are quite common in boats and Combine Harvesters <G>

Was very surprised that it has no heater plugs (at least not that I
can see) so starting it this morning in sub zero temeratures took a
bit of time - especialy as the battery, though newish, was by no means
fully charged. Huge cloud of black smoke when finally started but then
ran like a (very noisey) dream when the excess fuel had cleared.

Any tips for starting what is basically a lorry engine with no heater
plugs ?

AWEM

m0bcg · Nov 20, 2005

andrew , has it not got a pin on the injector pump that you have to
push in whilst having throttle fully down , for cold starting .

it may have one but im not entirely sure .

the genny i had at work is 150kva , fiat engine .

Alan J. Wylie · Nov 20, 2005

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:26:12 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson" <andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk> said:

> Was very surprised that it has no heater plugs (at least not that I
> can see)

Perkins agricultural engines used to use a "glow plug" like device in
the air intake - a coil of resistance wire which as it got hot opened
a valve which allowed diesel to flow onto it, bursting into flames.

> Any tips for starting what is basically a lorry engine with no
> heater plugs ?

Point a hot air gun down the air intake. Alternatively, if you don't
have 240V nearby, use a blowtorch.

--
Alan J. Wylie http://www.wylie.me.uk/
"Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add,
but rather when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Steve · Nov 20, 2005

Alan J. Wylie wrote:

>Alternatively, if you don't
> have 240V nearby, use a blowtorch.
>

If he HAD 240 V nearby he wouldn't need a bloomin' generator....
;-)
Steve

PDannyD · Nov 20, 2005

On Sunday 20 November 2005 16:26, Andrew Mawson
[andrew@no_spam_please_mawson.org.uk] wrote in message
<[email protected]>

> Got my big (100KVA) generator yesterday which has a Ford 2704ET 6
> litre 6 cylinder turbo charged diesel engine driving it. Always said
> I'd NEVER have a Ford and now I have one!!! Seems that these engines
> are quite common in boats and Combine Harvesters <G>

Possibly it has an inlet heater like some of the Perkins 4203 diesel
engines. Failing that, a goodly squirt of Easy Start.

The ignition switch on my old Perkins has a two-position ignition switch.
Turn it partway for a count of ten (20 if really frosty) then turn it fully
to start cranking the engine.

--
S3 SWB Petrol Hard-top

SimonJ · Nov 20, 2005

>>Alternatively, if you don't
>> have 240V nearby, use a blowtorch.
>>
>
> If he HAD 240 V nearby he wouldn't need a bloomin' generator....
> ;-)
>
Well use the 240v from the genny to power the hot air gun.
Bloody hell, some people are just so stupid.

SimonJ · Nov 20, 2005

> Got my big (100KVA) generator yesterday which has a Ford 2704ET 6
> litre 6 cylinder turbo charged diesel engine driving it. Always said
> I'd NEVER have a Ford and now I have one!!! Seems that these engines
> are quite common in boats and Combine Harvesters <G>
>
> Was very surprised that it has no heater plugs (at least not that I
> can see) so starting it this morning in sub zero temeratures took a
> bit of time - especialy as the battery, though newish, was by no means
> fully charged. Huge cloud of black smoke when finally started but then
> ran like a (very noisey) dream when the excess fuel had cleared.
>
> Any tips for starting what is basically a lorry engine with no heater
> plugs ?
>
There will be some sort of cold start device on there somewhere, if it is a
Dover engine, as used in the Ford Cargo, then the cold start will on the
fuel pump, in the form of a small button coming out of the middle of the
engine stop lever on the side of the fuel pump, or it will have a
electrically operated cold start, in which case there will be a small
solenoid instead of the plunger.
In either case they are operated in the same way, make sure the stop lever
is set in the run position, set the throttle lever to max (it will probably
be held at max by the genny speed control when the engine is not running)
and operate the plunger. You should hear a clunk from inside the pump as the
fuel rail springs over to the excess fuel position. now start the engine, it
should crack up nicely no matter what the temperature. The plunger will
reset itself as soon as the engine reaches governed speed.

Peter · Nov 20, 2005

Alan is right. The thing he is referring to is a "Thermostart" not
("Thermostat" in case you thought that was a typo)
It fits in the inlet manifold and is fed tromp the spare outlet on the fuel
filter. These are about the most effective pre heaters - if a little
archaic). Get one from a Lucas CAV agent.

Peter · Nov 20, 2005

Alan is right. The thing he is referring to is a "Thermostart" not
("Thermostat" in case you thought that was a typo)
It fits in the inlet manifold and is fed FROM the spare outlet on the fuel
filter. These are about the most effective pre heaters - if a little
archaic). Get one from a Lucas CAV agent.

(Don't know where 'tromp' came from when I previously posted this!)

hugh · Nov 20, 2005

In message <[email protected]>, SimonJ
<[email protected]> writes
>>>Alternatively, if you don't
>>> have 240V nearby, use a blowtorch.
>>>
>>
>> If he HAD 240 V nearby he wouldn't need a bloomin' generator....
>> ;-)
>>
>Well use the 240v from the genny to power the hot air gun.
>Bloody hell, some people are just so stupid.
>
>
.....here come the problem staters.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

Dave Liquorice · Nov 20, 2005

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:55:51 +0000, Steve wrote:

>> Alternatively, if you don't have 240V nearby, use a blowtorch.
>
> If he HAD 240 V nearby he wouldn't need a bloomin' generator....

Isn't the genny to power BFO induction furnace? You average single
phase domestic supply is only good for 20kVA or there abouts not
100...

The only thing I'd say about starting is avoid easy start if at all
possible. Engines must be designed to have some form of cold start
system that isn't quite so brutal.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Steve · Nov 20, 2005

Dave Liquorice wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:55:51 +0000, Steve wrote:
>
>>> Alternatively, if you don't have 240V nearby, use a blowtorch.
>> If he HAD 240 V nearby he wouldn't need a bloomin' generator....
>
> Isn't the genny to power BFO induction furnace? You average single
> phase domestic supply is only good for 20kVA or there abouts not
> 100...

's probably 3 phase at that rating.

Steve

AJH · Nov 20, 2005

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:02:43 +0000 (UTC), "SimonJ" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> Any tips for starting what is basically a lorry engine with no heater
>> plugs ?
>>
>There will be some sort of cold start device on there somewhere, if it is a
>Dover engine, as used in the Ford Cargo, then the cold start will on the
>fuel pump, in the form of a small button coming out of the middle of the
>engine stop lever on the side of the fuel pump, or it will have a
>electrically operated cold start, in which case there will be a small
>solenoid instead of the plunger.
>In either case they are operated in the same way, make sure the stop lever
>is set in the run position, set the throttle lever to max (it will probably
>be held at max by the genny speed control when the engine is not running)
>and operate the plunger. You should hear a clunk from inside the pump as the
>fuel rail springs over to the excess fuel position. now start the engine, it
>should crack up nicely no matter what the temperature. The plunger will
>reset itself as soon as the engine reaches governed speed.

Yes that is a good explanation, the 6 cylinder Ford direct injection
engines, with inline Simms or Minimec type injection pumps, are good
starters as long as the excess fuel button is used.

If its new to you I suggest draining the injector pump body and
refilling with decent oil.

AJH
>

Huw · Nov 20, 2005

"m0bcg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> andrew , has it not got a pin on the injector pump that you have to
> push in whilst having throttle fully down , for cold starting .
>
> it may have one but im not entirely sure .
>
> the genny i had at work is 150kva , fiat engine .
>

You are probably correct. This engine should have a Simms or CAV inline
injector pump with an 'excess fuel' button on one of the control lever axis.
It will pop out automatically when the engine starts. It may need some
little hand throttle before it will stay in initially.
Surprisingly effective.

Huw

Andrew Mawson · Nov 20, 2005

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave Liquorice wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:55:51 +0000, Steve wrote:
> >
> >>> Alternatively, if you don't have 240V nearby, use a blowtorch.
> >> If he HAD 240 V nearby he wouldn't need a bloomin' generator....
> >
> > Isn't the genny to power BFO induction furnace? You average single
> > phase domestic supply is only good for 20kVA or there abouts not
> > 100...
>
> 's probably 3 phase at that rating.
>
> Steve

Yes Steve, it's for the induction furnace (when I've sorted out why I
have no drive to the field coil, and added some soundproofing before
the neighbours slap an ASBO on me <G>)

So 240v hair drier are an option, so I suppose is an Easy Start ether
spray if it'ts not been banned by Europe

AWEM

Andrew Mawson · Nov 20, 2005

"AJH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:02:43 +0000 (UTC), "SimonJ" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >> Any tips for starting what is basically a lorry engine with no
heater
> >> plugs ?
> >>
> >There will be some sort of cold start device on there somewhere, if
it is a
> >Dover engine, as used in the Ford Cargo, then the cold start will
on the
> >fuel pump, in the form of a small button coming out of the middle
of the
> >engine stop lever on the side of the fuel pump, or it will have a
> >electrically operated cold start, in which case there will be a
small
> >solenoid instead of the plunger.
> >In either case they are operated in the same way, make sure the
stop lever
> >is set in the run position, set the throttle lever to max (it will
probably
> >be held at max by the genny speed control when the engine is not
running)
> >and operate the plunger. You should hear a clunk from inside the
pump as the
> >fuel rail springs over to the excess fuel position. now start the
engine, it
> >should crack up nicely no matter what the temperature. The plunger
will
> >reset itself as soon as the engine reaches governed speed.
>
> Yes that is a good explanation, the 6 cylinder Ford direct injection
> engines, with inline Simms or Minimec type injection pumps, are good
> starters as long as the excess fuel button is used.
>
> If its new to you I suggest draining the injector pump body and
> refilling with decent oil.
>
> AJH
> >
>

AJH,

It's a Ford 2704ET with a SIMMS injector pump, and it seems it does
have a button gizzmo on the throttle lever (or I assume it's the
throttle lever - in this application it's pulled fully open with a
solenoid.

I've not been able to find any information on-line on either the Ford
2704ET engine of the SIMMS injector pump (lots of Google hits but no
tech inf just commercial bits) so if anyone has any gen I'd be
grateful.

AWEM

Huw · Nov 20, 2005

"Andrew Mawson" >
> It's a Ford 2704ET with a SIMMS injector pump, and it seems it does
> have a button gizzmo on the throttle lever (or I assume it's the
> throttle lever - in this application it's pulled fully open with a
> solenoid.
>
> I've not been able to find any information on-line on either the Ford
> 2704ET engine of the SIMMS injector pump (lots of Google hits but no
> tech inf just commercial bits) so if anyone has any gen I'd be
> grateful.
>

Both are very very common but predate the internet and email by a year or
two ;-)
Nothing complicated and consequently can be maintained and repaired by
anyone with an ounce of mechanical aptitude. The Simms/CAV-Minimec are
inline pumps. In most applications their cambox is filled with oil to a
level plug and should be changed periodically. In later applications up to
the early '90's it may be force fed oil from the engine but I don't think
the 2704E was built in that era. I think this engine was built through the
70's to the mid 80's but have no definitive data to back it up.

Huw

Dave Liquorice · Nov 20, 2005

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:08:47 +0000, Steve wrote:

>> Isn't the genny to power BFO induction furnace? You average single
>> phase domestic supply is only good for 20kVA or there abouts not
>> 100...
>
> 's probably 3 phase at that rating.

Probably but most people don't have 3 phase handy... and 100kVA is
still 30+ per phase rather than 20. B-)

I notice that Andrew is asking how to make a sound proof box for his
new toy. The generator I normally work with are around the 100kVA mark
some with complete hot spares. These are generally fairly quiet just a
low rumble, the really good ones the only way to tell if they are
running is by the heat haze from the exhaust and looking at the
control panel. B-) Oh ther are also mounted on the back of trucks...

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

SimonJ · Nov 20, 2005

>> It's a Ford 2704ET with a SIMMS injector pump, and it seems it does
>> have a button gizzmo on the throttle lever (or I assume it's the
>> throttle lever - in this application it's pulled fully open with a
>> solenoid.
>>
>> I've not been able to find any information on-line on either the Ford
>> 2704ET engine of the SIMMS injector pump (lots of Google hits but no
>> tech inf just commercial bits) so if anyone has any gen I'd be
>> grateful.
>>
>
> Both are very very common but predate the internet and email by a year or
> two ;-)
> Nothing complicated and consequently can be maintained and repaired by
> anyone with an ounce of mechanical aptitude. The Simms/CAV-Minimec are
> inline pumps. In most applications their cambox is filled with oil to a
> level plug and should be changed periodically. In later applications up to
> the early '90's it may be force fed oil from the engine but I don't think
> the 2704E was built in that era. I think this engine was built through the
> 70's to the mid 80's but have no definitive data to back it up.
>
Its the same engine as fitted to the ford cargo, up until the 90's, and all
the examples I have seen are fed with oil from the engine, so no need to
worry about changing the oil in the fuel pump.

Andrew, check if the pump has a couple of oil lines coming from the oil rail
in the side of the block to the pump, and from the pump to a drain somewhere
above sump level in the side of the block, if these pipes are in place you
have an engine fed pump, so the lubrication will take care of itself as long
as the engine oil is ok.

SimonJ · Nov 20, 2005

> It's a Ford 2704ET with a SIMMS injector pump, and it seems it does
> have a button gizzmo on the throttle lever (or I assume it's the
> throttle lever - in this application it's pulled fully open with a
> solenoid.
>
That is the stop control, and will be held in the run position as long as
the genny control panel is switched on. The throttle lever is located
between the pump and the side of the block, and should be connected to some
sort of govenor control to hold the engine at constant speed regardless of
the load on teh genny.

> I've not been able to find any information on-line on either the Ford
> 2704ET engine of the SIMMS injector pump (lots of Google hits but no
> tech inf just commercial bits) so if anyone has any gen I'd be
> grateful.
>
try looking for information on the ford Dover engine, this is the same
engine in automotive form. Ford cargo workshop manuals should have all the
info in.

Starting Diesels with no heater plugs

Andrew Mawson

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m0bcg

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Alan J. Wylie

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Steve

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PDannyD

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SimonJ

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SimonJ

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Peter

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Peter

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hugh

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Dave Liquorice

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Steve

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AJH

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Huw

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Andrew Mawson

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Andrew Mawson

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Huw

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Dave Liquorice

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SimonJ

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