Starter motor testing advice

Not a Landover but a Renault traffic MK1 diesel 2.5td campervan.
The original Paris Rhone d11e172 packed up around 3 yrs ago, fitted a cheapy no name new one off eBay and that exploded it's nasty cheap reduction gears in next to no time. Decided to get the much more manly original Paris Rhone one reconditioned at an auto electrical place near me and that worked half a dozen times and then packed up.
Then I found an original Paris Rhone reconditioned by Lucas , never fitted by the look of it, up north on eBay. Got that and all good for around 50 starts and then playing up. Turn key and nowt, try key multiple times and it would sometimes throw the solenoid or click but not turn over, sometimes it would turn over straight away.
It's been stood around 8 months and with a new battery it won't turn over at all. It's a swine to remove so I did all the usual checks first, jump leads direct to starter, jumper wire direct to solenoid and nothing so I've just spent the last 2 hrs taking it off.
Bench testing gives the same results, it's dead. I've lost faith in the cheapy ones and in recondioners so I'd like to investigate it my self.
Anything I should be aware of or is there away to check the windings or brushes (do they have brushes?) Without breaking it further?.
the gear still has the grease on it from when I got it and it all slides freely there.

It's French.
It's electrical.
Need I say any more

Not bad:


They do tend to dance around a bit if not held down!
I had a click but no crank with my RRC some time ago & that was a defective connection inside the solenoid. Full battery voltage not being passed to the lower connection so the starter would throw out the gear but only spin slowly. Connecting live to the lower connection & it spun & danced about!

Pull it apart and see.
They are not the scary things people seem to make them out to be.

Tbh most of the work is done by the solenoid, it does two things, engages the starter bendix and at the same time engages the heavy electrical supply.

Whats it on a camper?
Iirc some of the the renaults had the gearbox in front of the engine?

I decided to blindly attack it.
Made some headway too.
Turns out one of my tests when it was still in the van, power direct to starter bypassing the solenoid didn't work because of paint on the nut/stud, difficult to see in situ. I removed this nut and connected direct into the motor and it spins lovely.
I then removed the solenoid complete, that took some head scratching, and stripped it down. It worked but seemed weak and notchy then started working again but was intermittently failing to engage.
So just need another one of them if I can find one

Sounds like you have the same issue as I had in my updated post (above)

Is there a number on the solenoid body?
Random google: https://www.autoelectricalspares.co.uk/replacing-lucas-232-c.asp

Ratae said:

It's French.
It's electrical.
Need I say any more

Click to expand...

You could add 'burn it', if it doesn't burn itself.

Ratae said:

Sounds like you have the same issue as I had in my updated post (above)

Is there a number on the solenoid body?
Random google: https://www.autoelectricalspares.co.uk/replacing-lucas-232-c.asp

Click to expand...

It's not a Lucas starter or solenoid, both made by Paris Rhone.
It's got CED 19
12V J4
On the solenoid. There maybe a number before the '19' bit. I can see a slight evidence but it's minimal.
I know a Bendix can go sticky but can a starter solenoid? I would have thought the 'core' (which is a piston shaped thing) would pull into the outer body of the solenoid when energised when working and not at all if it was knacked, rather than sometimes pulling in, sometimes not? The core pulling in joins the two heavy contacts causing the motor to spin and the other end of the core pushes the starter gear into mesh.

CED419?
http://www.solenoid-switch.com/Paris-Rhone-Valeo-Starter-Solenoid-datasheet.html

Ratae said:

CED419?
http://www.solenoid-switch.com/Paris-Rhone-Valeo-Starter-Solenoid-datasheet.html

Click to expand...

Does look similar...
I'll have to measure mine after. Got to nip out fetch the lad from college.
Can you buy off them?

Don't know.
Not much showing on ebay & I've not had another google.

lynall said:

Pull it apart and see.
They are not the scary things people seem to make them out to be.

Tbh most of the work is done by the solenoid, it does two things, engages the starter bendix and at the same time engages the heavy electrical supply.

Whats it on a camper?
Iirc some of the the renaults had the gearbox in front of the engine?

Click to expand...

Yeah, winnebago lesharo, Renault trafic MK1 with the 2.1 diesel cab and running gear with a winnebago coach.
The solenoid has been tested to death and the plunger just won't pull in under electrical stimulation alone, it needs a push then it flies in and is impossible to pull back out whilst energised but shoots back out under its spring pressure when de-energised. I guess the outter solenoid body is the magnet when energised and the plunger is attracted to and into it.
Can't find jack from googling spares either..

Might need to ring round reconditioners to see if they will sell parts.
I use these in Leicester for testing & repairs but I've no idea if they will sell parts mail order, assuming they have your solenoid in stock.
http://greensleicester.co.uk/
(Looks like a bit of mislabelling of an alternator & starter motor on the website! It's a newish website & I think they might want to have a word with its designer)

Flossie said:

Yeah, winnebago lesharo, Renault trafic MK1 with the 2.1 diesel cab and running gear with a winnebago coach.
The solenoid has been tested to death and the plunger just won't pull in under electrical stimulation alone, it needs a push then it flies in and is impossible to pull back out whilst energised but shoots back out under its spring pressure when de-energised. I guess the outter solenoid body is the magnet when energised and the plunger is attracted to and into it.
Can't find jack from googling spares either..

Click to expand...

Being French is there some sort of voltage control for pulling the solenoid in i.e. higher voltage to start off and then a weaker voltage to hold it in?

lynall said:

Being French is there some sort of voltage control for pulling the solenoid in i.e. higher voltage to start off and then a weaker voltage to hold it in?

Click to expand...

Nah, they just surrender to easy.
Anyway, possible solution.
Rang around some recon places, most didn't answer their phones but one in Birmingham asked for pics and replied 10mins later he can get a solenoid for Monday at £40.
When it comes in I'll drive there and fit it and test before handing over the dosh.
It all seemed to easy and my Spidey senses are tingling but that might be my natural distrust of Brummies being similar to yamyams

Probably best to let them test & fit.
If you fit it you may well find that they won't accept it back - common in the motor trade with electrical stuff, if the packaging is broken then the assumption is that it's been fitted & any issues are down to the original problem with the vehicle not having been repaired prior to fitment.
Result of too many people just fitting stuff without proper diagnostic & the new item goes bang.
See if you can find their T&Cs.

Well, the bastard never rang me back and is not answering calls either.
Tried another guy who didn't answer the phone a few days back but did yesterday, another Brummie though.
That has been left with him contacting his supplier to see if a new solenoid is available and ringing me back to advise cost. He's not rung back yet but I'm still hopeful.
He also says he has lots of old starters in his workshop and if a new one isn't available then a rummage through his tat may come up trumps but I'll have to drive there and do the rummaging.
Fairy nuff.

Update!
First guy texted me around 9.30am this morning saying the solenoid has arrived so I drove down, around an hour drive which took 1.5 hrs due to an accident on the M6. They fitted it for me and tested all ok.
Just charged me the £40 too
2nd guy then rang me to say he can get me one too for this Wednesday..
I feel bad for the 2nd guy cos he was a nice friendly knowledgeable chap on the phone and he was a little closer to me as well.
He was happy I was sorted though.

Ahhh...bugger!
Starter no worky after grazing my hands and arms for 2 hrs fitting it.
I tested it myself on the bench before fitting it too, as well as witnessing it working yesterday at the reconners.
So off with it again and back on the bench, new solenoid is now behaving like the old one, piston not pulling in and the motor itself won't spin when powered direct, ( bypassing the solenoid) and it did before!
So I'm actually worse off than when I started.

Bugger indeed!
That it's now done the same with 4 starter motors does beg the question as to whether all is well with the vehicle's electrical system.
Unless the solenoids are all from the same batch & the batch is faulty?
What have the latest repairers said?

I've just rung them and am taking it in tomorrow. Can't see it being a wiring problem, only 2 cables to the solenoid stud, battery direct and alternator, then the spade to the ign switch.