Smoke on cold start up TD4

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Mine blows blue smoke on start up, but only once every few days, it tents to be more pronounced if i have been driving gently with it.

Have twisted performance remap, allisport EGR blanking kit, silicone hoses, ive been running it on BP Ultimate diesel for the past year without fail. Oil filter and oil is changed every 6 months with genuine filter and castrol 5w 30 oil.

My number 2 injector flows less than the others on the test, ive ran a few bottles of millers fuel additives/injector cleaner through the system.

My mileage is 67k, the cars done this since i bought it at 37k. Strangely my old td4 never did it and that was at 59k.

Could a misfuelling by previous owner cause issues? My fuel pump packed in the day i bought mine but its ran fine every since.
 
:D Sorry fella but this is total crap. If it's your mistake then fair enough but if this has come from your specialist then he ain't that special and you should stay well clear.
Well there is nowt like being called a liar and if your so confident why cant you solve the problem and tell everyone all i am trying to do is share info with everyone and pass on whats happening as we go BUT i will keep my thoughts quite and say no more cheers chaps many thanks phil.
 
Hi yes i no that the timing is ecu controlled but when chain is stretched it causes extra travel in chain so when the crank and cam sensor tells ecu to fuel then with the extra travel in the chain it may only really be at 4 BTDC so advancing the timing theoretically by telling ecu to fuel at 8 bTDC by a remap it is only fueling at 6 BTDC as if it had a new chain hence no extra fuel and less smoke being produced.
i agree when the chain is streched it could cause timing fault between cam and crank sensor but it should flag up a fault code if there was a miss match,
 
Of the two the ecm uses the crank sensor signal only for injection timing purposes. The cam sensor role is purely to establish when #1 cylinder is on its compression stroke during start up and plays no further part in engine running.

In any case if it is believed that camshaft timing/position is incorrect for any reason then that can and should be corrected mechanically.
i think this is true of petrol engines but not diesel,diesel requires both cam and crank sensor signals to run properly.:)
 
Hi Phil don't spit your dummy out!!! ..... keep us in the loop ..... I don't pretend to know but hey .... if yours has stopped the large plume of blue smoke - thats fair enough. My truck seems very sensative to glow plugs ..... when I replaced the hole lot with NGK ... smoke was reduced by 80% ..... this lasted about a week and then returned. I am thinking that maybe I have a connection problem on one glow plug ... not enough to stop it biting on startup .... but when it starts perhaps one cylinder is lagging behind due to poor combustion temperature. I think when I replaced glow plugs I may of disturbed the connections sufficiently to make it work for a while. Electrical problems on old trucks are endemic .... these glow plugs are right behind the rad in line with all the salt spray and water...... one of my glow plug - plugs did feel a bit odd when reconnecting. I am going to attempt to find some new connectors and rewire. I will give mine a fergle soon and report back ........ keep posting everybody .... sooner or later a reason will be established.
 
Yeah, c'mon Phil, don't take the hump mate, Chaser is a well respected guru of all things freelander and passes on his vast knowledge freely....

anyhows..tell that guy with the new map to kepp it saved cos he might have a queue of us waiting for a remap!!

My next attempt to get to the bottom of this is a) new NGK glowplugs then b) oil change but instead of 5/30 fully synth i'm gonna give 10/40 semi to spec a try... i know what you're all gonna say about getting oil to the turbo, mornings being colder etc but i'm thinking that something just a little thicker might suit it a little better. just gonna use good old halfords 10/40 acea b4/a3 diesel stuff cos it'll cost me about 25 quid with me trade card and if it doesn't like it i can just take it out and paint the fence with it!!
 
Hi all, I am the mate of Phil's who has had the smoke on start problem, and I use the word "HAD" the problem, as the problem has just about (95%) been eliminated.....

Go get a cuppa, sit back, relax and read what we (Phil and I have done) .. It will open your eyes to some of the problems which overlap and give you headaches !!

I bought this car (2003 facelift model with TD4 engine) showing 85k on the clock, the service history was .... sketchy ... I test drove the car when the engine was warm and was vigilant about monitoring the smoke, engine temp etc etc as you do when buying a car you've only just seen, there are no oil leaks and everything works well, the chap I bought it from told me that it smoked a bit on start up but cleared after the engine was warm. Well I thought... leaky injector.. we (the company I work for) see this a lot, (I am a forklift truck engineer) so have plenty of experience of this type of problem, along with LPG systems, electrical systems (traction and automotive), hydraulic systems and all other things forklift related, I've only been in the trade for about 25 years so I'm still learning !! (i mean that) .. I have 8 other engineers who I work with and between us we have over 180 years worth of experience .. sorry about the background story but it is important, Phil has also been in the industry for over 20 years so between us we are more than competent. We deal with a number of "specialists" within our industry and have a good working relationship with them, we share information and have always managed to resolve any issues we've been presented with, some just take longer than others to work out, anyway lets get to the story.

We removed the injectors (at our diesel specialists premises) they were tested in front of our eyes on a £30k machine, two of them were slightly outside parameters on the fueling timing so all 4 were duly overhauled and refitted, at the same time we changed the glow plugs and Crankcase breather filter, we also checked the diaphragm that was in there, all were good, as Phil has said we had already changed the fuel filter (rear o/side wheel arch) what a lovely job that was! the air filter, etc etc, so a FULL service we could say, anyway I ran the car and it was certainly better, BUT the smoke still persisted, when the engine was not up to temperature I could hold the throttle at around 1900rpm and the (greyish / blue) smoke was coming out like a little steam train going uphill, so problem still there after injectors, filters and all other sensors checked and passed as operational, (we had swapped all the sensors off Phil's TD4 which works perfectly, having only done low miles with full history), so back to the drawing board.... My diesel specialist had said from the start that he comes across these on a fairly regular basis (1 a month on average) with this or similar problem, his solution has been to check the timing on his VERY EXPENSIVE equipment, oh forgot to mention that he and his colleague have been diesel specialists for over 30 years so have seen most problems on diesel engines, so timing checked he determined that the smoke was due to the injector still putting fuel in after the piston had reached or just passed TDC, so when the engine was cold the (TINY) amount of fuel which was going in at the wrong time (too late) was causing the smoke, when the engine was warm or near normal operating temperature it can easily burn of this really small amount of fuel within the combustion stroke so NO SMOKE WHEN WARM..

Ok, so let's re-cap, done everything possible to resolve the issue except timing which "can't be changed", well actually IT CAN'T, not electronically anyway,my own son re-maps diesel engines for a living, so I got him involved, he has access to a team of re-map engineers who he passed this information to, on the suggestion of my diesel specialist to see if it is possible to re-map the ECU to put in the fuel a little earlier to eliminate the small amount going in after TDC, so the re-map guys came back with a map, this map puts the fuel in at 6 degrees before TDC as it should, BUT it stops injection 1 degree earlier, the injectors still put in the about the same amount of fuel but the cycle finishes a little earlier, the theory behind this is that the engine probably didn't have an oil change for around 30k miles prior to me buying it, and as a result the timing chain / sprockets have worn more than they would have if they were running in nice new oil, it only takes a relatively small timing issue to cause this, as anyone who is familiar with the good old rotary diesel pumps will tell you, but at least you could 'spill time' these, anyway I digress.

So... new map duly programmed into ecu, this showed another problem up which I hadn't considered or even knew about, that was that the battery was only showing 11.88v whilst the re-map was being done, now I know that the ECU requires 12.4v before it can send out to all the sensors and get back an accurate reading, in turn it can then send off signals to the injectors for fueling, this is done with the crank sensor which tells the ecu when the pistons are 6 degrees before TDC and subsequently starts the injection process, so I checked the voltage at the battery on cranking when I re-started the engine, down to 9.2v at its lowest reading, but in a second the voltage was a healthy 13.4v, so alternator is working, and ECU is happy having full voltage, this made me think .... for the first second of ignition the ecu uses default settings as it can't monitor all the sensors accurately due to low voltage as the battery is turning the engine over.

So my theory about the initial fueling was wrong as it uses default settings???

Well NO, fuel would be injected into the chamber after combustion, leaving excess fuel on the next cycle (exhaust) when the engine is cold this wouldn't be burnt off properly, so causing excess smoke,
when the engine is warm then the fuel injected after combustion would be burnt of and exhausted on the exhaust cycle,

Remember, 4 stroke, SUCK - SQUEEZE - BANG - BLOW , if you put fuel in after the BANG then it BLOWS out unburnt as smoke,
but when hot this small amount of fuel would ignite in the chamber due to the high temperature and exhaust out burnt on the BLOW cycle.

So.. test drove the car with new - map ........ Oh My Goooooooodness .... Where had all this power come from ?, why was it smooth on acceleration ? Where has (Nearly) all the smoke gone at 1900 rpm? Why does it freely rev through to red-line without any hesitation ?

Well ... the only thing we have done beyond everyone else is re-map the ECU with an eco / performance map.

SO in "olden day terms' we've altered the timing slightly, like you used to do on your ford escort petrol to stop it pinking on that nasty cheap supermarket fuel !!

OH .... That's the other thing I've changed, the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF ANY ENGINE ....... THE FUEL ........ If you put crap in then you get crap out ... SIMPLE !

If you use low cost fuel - Morrisons - Tesco etc, then would certainly recommend something like Millers as an additive, or Comma diesel Magic as a 1 shot solution (as recommended by the diesel specialist and re-map engineer) or simply spend an extra few quid a tank on some good fuel like BP Ultimate diesel or similar, that's what I have done and it works a treat, nearly nil smoke, smoother, quieter, more responsive and I must say goes like a pocket rocket for a 2 ton slab,

One last thing I have learned is that the EGR valve is like a noose around the TD4's neck, I am getting rid of this over the weekend and I will report my findings early next week.

I must thank everyone for their contribution and a special thanks to Phil for his patience and understanding !!!!

I hope this helps you get to the root cause of your problem in some way, but I can honestly say it has cured mine !

Please feel free to comment .....

Dave.

********* OMG ********** The smoke is back at 2000 rpm ...... ***************** 13th Dec 2011
 
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markyzs180 ... Don't use a 10 weight oil in winter ... Use a 5w / 30 semi (or fully) synthetic, you need to use a lighter oil in lower temperatures to maintain the best lubrication possible, thicker oil is not good in winter .. trust me on this one, we see forklifts left outside over the winter holidays which will only just turn over with the heavy weight oils in them. Not good for battery or starter !

Thanks for your input on my post by the way.

Dave
 
i think this is true of petrol engines but not diesel,diesel requires both cam and crank sensor signals to run properly.:)
Chaser is correct on this one, the cam sensor is only used on start up on this ECU to tell it when to start fueling, after this is sits there and plays suduko !
 
Hi David,
Thanks for the explanation of how you fixed it. Congrats :):)
All injector timing taken from the crank sensor (or ECU default) ;)
Worn cam chain causing late valve timings - stretch in the pull side from the crank - seems feasable.
But wouldn't that help by allowing longer to burn the fuel before the valves opened ??
Just wondering - Have you actually discovered an over-specified area in the generic FL map and a potentialy valuable mod??
LR (Bosch?) would have designed the map to cater for a very wide range (quality) of worldwide fuels not optimised for our relatively good (?) quality fuel.
Would be interested to see what the performance and economy of your remap has achieved - as well as the obvious lack of smoke.
Keep us posted. :tea:
 
markyzs180 ... Don't use a 10 weight oil in winter ... Use a 5w / 30 semi (or fully) synthetic, you need to use a lighter oil in lower temperatures to maintain the best lubrication possible, thicker oil is not good in winter .. trust me on this one, we see forklifts left outside over the winter holidays which will only just turn over with the heavy weight oils in them. Not good for battery or starter !

Thanks for your input on my post by the way.

Dave


thanks for the great write up on what you've done so far and yep, ur right, wrong time of year for for 10 stuff :eek:
 
Hi Mickymck,
I wasn't aware they did cut out the engine when hot if the sensor fails, I have known them fail when hot and make restarting a hot engine difficult. I was of the understanding that the cam sensor is used only on start-up, it tells the ECU where TDC is on number 1 cylinder (or no. 4 if your left handed :D:D) which it can then determine when to start fuelling, after start-up the crank sensor takes over.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Hi David,
Thanks for the explanation of how you fixed it. Congrats :):)
All injector timing taken from the crank sensor (or ECU default) ;)
Worn cam chain causing late valve timings - stretch in the pull side from the crank - seems feasable.
But wouldn't that help by allowing longer to burn the fuel before the valves opened ??
Just wondering - Have you actually discovered an over-specified area in the generic FL map and a potentialy valuable mod??
LR (Bosch?) would have designed the map to cater for a very wide range (quality) of worldwide fuels not optimised for our relatively good (?) quality fuel.
Would be interested to see what the performance and economy of your remap has achieved - as well as the obvious lack of smoke.
Keep us posted. :tea:
Hi TD John,
I would have thought so too,
"But wouldn't that help by allowing longer to burn the fuel before the valves opened ??"
But after a little more FAFFING AROUND I can confirm that it is quite different when the engine is under load,
Here Goes, Start-up from cold, no problem, smooth idle etc, drive off in the normal way and drive it normally, then no smoke and everything is hunky dory,
OR
Start up from cold, let it tickover for about 1 min, rev up to around 1900rpm and there is a slight misfire, and It is only slight, but a little smoke (greyish) for around 15-20 seconds,
So it only smokes more than it should when cold at 1900-2000rpm, when warm there is no smoke at all???
I can live with this as in normal operation it's fine, but I can't understand why it has the 1900-2000 rpm misfire when cold.
So when 'under load' I reckon the chain is tight and the timing is more or less spot on, but on tickover or free revving then the chain must have some play which throws the timing out a TINY amount.
I wonder ---- is it just mine or does anyone else's do this, give it a try and post your results please.

Cheers
 
Hi Mickymck,
I wasn't aware they did cut out the engine when hot if the sensor fails, I have known them fail when hot and make restarting a hot engine difficult. I was of the understanding that the cam sensor is used only on start-up, it tells the ECU where TDC is on number 1 cylinder (or no. 4 if your left handed :D:D) which it can then determine when to start fuelling, after start-up the crank sensor takes over.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
you may be right, i dont know if this engine would be the same but the ford engine does that is fitted to the FL2 :confused:
 
Hi I am a little confused......... It appears David is geeting or was smoke when uderway after starting. Mine appears different ..... fractionally reluctant start and a bloody great cloud of blue grey smoke ...... for 2 seconds this clears and it is fine. Until the engine cools ...... and it happens again. Changed leaky injector, all filters, glow plugs , ECT, ..... breather to vortex bmw type....... The only thing I can see in my engine that may cause this ..... is either one of the glow plugs not working...or poor wiring or condensed oil from breather vapour. One clue I had was - when I changed glow plugs I took off inlet manifold and placed it at an odd angle in the garrage - propped up in the corner. On refitting everything - I started engine when warm .... and I got a bloody great cloud of smoke .... which I never normally get on a warm engine. I suspect oil had drained to the lowest point in the manifold and then got injested on restart...... Truck does not use much oil about a pint every 5000miles perhaps......
 
Hi I am a little confused......... It appears David is geeting or was smoke when uderway after starting. Mine appears different ..... fractionally reluctant start and a bloody great cloud of blue grey smoke ...... for 2 seconds this clears and it is fine. Until the engine cools ...... and it happens again. Changed leaky injector, all filters, glow plugs , ECT, ..... breather to vortex bmw type....... The only thing I can see in my engine that may cause this ..... is either one of the glow plugs not working...or poor wiring or condensed oil from breather vapour. One clue I had was - when I changed glow plugs I took off inlet manifold and placed it at an odd angle in the garrage - propped up in the corner. On refitting everything - I started engine when warm .... and I got a bloody great cloud of smoke .... which I never normally get on a warm engine. I suspect oil had drained to the lowest point in the manifold and then got injested on restart...... Truck does not use much oil about a pint every 5000miles perhaps......
That is normal oil consumption for that mileage even a qt in 5000miles is good
 
Hi David,
On-Off load differences should be taken up by the chain tensioner - unless that's sloppy too ?? Is the cam chain noisey ?? If not it should not affect things that greatly. :)
The only thing mechanical I can think of that operates around 1800/2000RPM is the EGR valve. Is your one still in place. Even if it has a disconnected vac pipe, it could still allow exhaust past if the valve isn't firmly closed ?? :confused:
Oil from breather, exhaust from EGR - sounds like a recipe for smoke and hesitancy if it ain't fully closed when it should be ??
Another idea for the pot ?? - ;)
If you've got an EGR bypass then I'm stumped too ??
 
Hi TD John, thanks for your input, I have still got the OEM EGR valve in place, this is being changed tonight, I will post the results later or tomorrow. Watch this space .....
If it doesn't work after this my only question is shall I buy half a gallon of petrol or a full gallon and a match !!!! Just kidding, it's not going to beat us this one, it's just a car !!
 
Hi Chaser, if you think about it the chain makes all the difference, the crank sensor tells the ecu it's 6 deg. before TDC, this starts fuelling at the correct time, the ecu doesn't know the chain is stretched as the cam sensor is not in use whilst running, so the cam would be slightly out of time, hence valves open / closed at the wrong time, the only fix is a new cam chain, what we have done is alter the map so fuelling is shorter, it's a theory and seems to be working, changing egr for bypass unit later, will post results.
Cheers - ave
 
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