Series 3 109 engine conversion BMW M57 6cyl diesel

series3_M57 said:

Noted though not in memory from in depth reading many years ago. Things may have changed. Dependent on position for gear/ transfer levers, and space behind the front grill, it may be possible to modify mounts to suit the existing chassis setup.

This is where it would be really handy to find someone who's got even a rolling chassis already setup

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You can’t weld stuff to the chassis as it’s classed as modified. Drilling extra holes is also not allowed

Henry_b said:

MW machines have done a conversion on a Defender.

no idea on the series though, why the M57?

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Yes defenders aplenty, zero info on series as far as I can find

M57 is a spectacular engine. Mines on quarter million miles. Can place your mug on the top cover and will sit there without spilling. 38mpg in a 2.3t vehicle on a run, 32mpg mixed use. Expecting 45mpg in series. Very quiet, smooth and more than enough power to drive around on light throttle. Chain not belt. Robust and fuel efficient. Injectors pull out by hand if leave engine oil on top of the cover for a few weeks.

Annoyingly the air filter housing is part of the top cover and blocks access to the exhaust manifold/ turbo but from reading around it seems like a top cover from a car has a separate air filter housing.

The exhaust manifolds are prone to cracking which overfuels and leads to slow throttle response. Just replaced mine with cast.

Everything else about BMW that I've touched is complete rubbish but the engine is top notch.

Hicap phill said:

You can’t weld stuff to the chassis as it’s classed as modified. Drilling extra holes is also not allowed

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Ok will work with the idea of the mounts being part landy part BMW cheers

Wildefalcon said:

Start with a six cylinder registered vehicle, ideally a scrapper, buy a new 6 cyl chassis. That should get you a long way there. Much more space.

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I see the 6cyl chassis has the cross member moved rearwards and it appears there's a special bulkhead with more space for gearbox.

Very useful info thanks for highlighting that idea

Hicap phill said:

You can’t weld stuff to the chassis as it’s classed as modified. Drilling extra holes is also not allowed

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I was under the impression you can move engine and gearbox mounts as long as they are not part of the chassis structure as such.
Otherwise near enough every engine conversion would require an IVA.
You can't cut off out riggers, crossmembers, body mounts etc

It's unequivocal, no modifications.

However in practice I've never heard of it being implemented, unless when ringers are crushed.

But, it should be possible to use existing mounts to fit the engine, with a custom mount on the BMW block. And, as you've the steering, axles and suspension i think you'll be okay for points and ID. On the historic exemptions, as you are doing this for economy, you should be able to keep historic status.

series3_M57 said:

What a ghastly idea

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What a stupid opinion. Without Jeep there would be no Land Rover ffs.

Anaconda said:

I was under the impression you can move engine and gearbox mounts as long as they are not part of the chassis structure as such.
Otherwise near enough every engine conversion would require an IVA.
You can't cut off out riggers, crossmembers, body mounts etc

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That isn't how it is worded. It is specifically worded to say standard or no modifications. It does not make any reference to what is or isn't allowed in terms of drilling and/or welding.

However, the entire process is one of self declaration and certification. There is no 'test' or 'assessment' to establish if a vehicle qualifies or not. You can speak to VOSA/DVLA and seek an opinion of the advisor, but that is nothing more than that persons interpretation.

Ultimately if the powers at be decide to take a vehicle off the road on these grounds, they will almost certainly have the power to be able too.

But it should be noted that even fitting of a rollcage would mean loss of identity and an IVA.... to the strictest letter of how the guidance is written on the .gov site. Obviously reality says no cars have probably lost their identity due to a rollcage. So clearly some things are accepted. But there is nothing to say what they are or in what context with other alterations have been made.

series3_M57 said:

Hello there to all,

Long time owner of a 110 Defender CSW 200tdi factory standard.

New to Series landies.

Have a 2006 single turbo E53 BMW X5 in her last year of service due to corrosion. Engine sound.

Question- is there anyone on here that has fitted an 6cyl M57 engine to a series 3?

plan at this point is manual BMW gearbox mated to BMW engine, keep BMW intercooler and radiator. BMW propahafts with landy flange fittings welded on their ends running off of LT230 with disco / defender axles converted to leaf mounts.

Familiar with mechanics, repairs, welding. Hate electrics. Hate plastic trim.

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I think some Defenders sold in South Africa came from the factory with a 6 cylinder BMW petrol engine.
But I think those were naturally aspirated engines, not turbo.
In the UK, Series came with 6 cylinder engines as an option, but they were quite low powered engines, and had different engine mounts, chassis, and floor and transmission tunnel arrangement to accommodate the engine.

So I think it would be a lot of work, result in an overpowered vehicle for the brakes and suspension, and probably not worth the candle.

series3_M57 said:

Hello there to all,

Long time owner of a 110 Defender CSW 200tdi factory standard.

New to Series landies.

Have a 2006 single turbo E53 BMW X5 in her last year of service due to corrosion. Engine sound.

Question- is there anyone on here that has fitted an 6cyl M57 engine to a series 3?

plan at this point is manual BMW gearbox mated to BMW engine, keep BMW intercooler and radiator. BMW propahafts with landy flange fittings welded on their ends running off of LT230 with disco / defender axles converted to leaf mounts.

Familiar with mechanics, repairs, welding. Hate electrics. Hate plastic trim.

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I would think changing this amount you'd also add PAS as it might not even be possible to retain the standard steering. All of which would mean unlikely to retain its identity if you look at the guidance on the .gov site

You could still build it and IVA it however. The guidance doesn't stop you creating such a vehicle. It just means it wouldn't be historic. Ultimately it might be easier to buy a 110 and just swap the engine and make it look like a 109 with a Series front panel and bonnet. That would be a more legal way of doing it. Although I'd put a penny to the pound you are intending not to pay road tax or go for an MoT, hence wanting to use a 109.

Be aware the regs on MoT/VED exemption are also slightly different from either the Rebuilt or Radically Altered Regs you'd need to adhere too.

300bhp/ton said:

That isn't how it is worded. It is specifically worded to say standard or no modifications. It does not make any reference to what is or isn't allowed in terms of drilling and/or welding.

However, the entire process is one of self declaration and certification. There is no 'test' or 'assessment' to establish if a vehicle qualifies or not. You can speak to VOSA/DVLA and seek an opinion of the advisor, but that is nothing more than that persons interpretation.

Ultimately if the powers at be decide to take a vehicle off the road on these grounds, they will almost certainly have the power to be able too.

But it should be noted that even fitting of a rollcage would mean loss of identity and an IVA.... to the strictest letter of how the guidance is written on the .gov site. Obviously reality says no cars have probably lost their identity due to a rollcage. So clearly some things are accepted. But there is nothing to say what they are or in what context with other alterations have been made.

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Guess non of really matters unless something happens to need an investigation.

Anaconda said:

Guess non of really matters unless something happens to need an investigation.

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Personal hunch is declare all to insurance company and if they are happy, that's the main thing

300bhp/ton said:

I would think changing this amount you'd also add PAS as it might not even be possible to retain the standard steering. All of which would mean unlikely to retain its identity if you look at the guidance on the .gov site

You could still build it and IVA it however. The guidance doesn't stop you creating such a vehicle. It just means it wouldn't be historic. Ultimately it might be easier to buy a 110 and just swap the engine and make it look like a 109 with a Series front panel and bonnet. That would be a more legal way of doing it. Although I'd put a penny to the pound you are intending not to pay road tax or go for an MoT, hence wanting to use a 109.

Be aware the regs on MoT/VED exemption are also slightly different from either the Rebuilt or Radically Altered Regs you'd need to adhere too.

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Aware of the points system

Not intending to build or drive an unsafe vehicle

Interesting idea regarding a defender with series body. Now that may be an option and means off the shelf conversion components can be sourced. Noted, thanks.

MOT / tax exemption / historic status is at the bottom of the list of desires tbh. Already have a defender 200tdi so plan is to go for something else this time around. Looked for a series 1 before settled for the defender though at the time was unable to find one to sufficient standard I would have been confident to use as a daily driver. This was around a decade ago.

The actual lure to series is due to frustrations whilst working on the defender
Plastic trim covering areas need access to cause sheer frustration. Zero enjoyment or tolerance for restrictions to maintenance.
Whereas series are components laid bare with instant access for the tools. Bliss.

Just an example - washer jet replacement on the defender requiring dash out
Cut two holes for my hands instead. I accept to most people this reasoning will appear silly but to those that lay on the drive in all weathers and seasons to maintain as they go...I'm sure there's at least one other person that is nodding.

Let's not get started on modern vehicles. Eg the X5 was ten hours for a full dash removal to replace the fan blower. Sigh.

PAS not interested in. Standard steering can remain if can keep the axles, albeit heavy duty components may be required after some testing.....pinion, flanges, shafts etc. trial and error.

Turboman said:

I think some Defenders sold in South Africa came from the factory with a 6 cylinder BMW petrol engine.
But I think those were naturally aspirated engines, not turbo.
In the UK, Series came with 6 cylinder engines as an option, but they were quite low powered engines, and had different engine mounts, chassis, and floor and transmission tunnel arrangement to accommodate the engine.

So I think it would be a lot of work, result in an overpowered vehicle for the brakes and suspension, and probably not worth the candle.

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Noted re the 6cyl chassis and bulkhead. Sounds logical this would be the least time consuming method
Just to be clear though the actual time requirements to drop in a BMW engine and BMW manual gear box with conversion adapter to an LT230 are literally as fast as mounts can be fabricated and custom props auto-welded on a lathe welder. And hopefully mounting the rad / intercooler from the BMW also. Where time would be sunk in would be placement to ensure fit of everything , gear sticks etc.
The running of engine from ECU is plug and play from reading around. And dials/ guages can be worked on as time goes by, using wires taken off of loom connectors.

Obviously no cruise control without wheel speed sensors but thinking logically it may be possible to have an engine speed limiter to act as cruise. Just brainstorming , not informing.

Can't see a reason brakes and suspension wouldn't be fine if driven in the same manner as would be with any other engine, as not planning on going 150mph. Though upgrades to braking on series vehicles may be a thing? If so what's the method? Thanks

300bhp/ton said:

What a stupid opinion. Without Jeep there would be no Land Rover ffs.

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The opinion was based on an image in mind of buying a modern jeep with similar engine power figures. Been there done it with an X5. Never again.

If the original post meant a classic keep then I've misinterpreted the post but can't see the context given the thread is about modern engine into an older vehicle.

Wildefalcon said:

It's unequivocal, no modifications.

However in practice I've never heard of it being implemented, unless when ringers are crushed.

But, it should be possible to use existing mounts to fit the engine, with a custom mount on the BMW block. And, as you've the steering, axles and suspension i think you'll be okay for points and ID. On the historic exemptions, as you are doing this for economy, you should be able to keep historic status.

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Yes mounts can be fabricated no problem

Would have been ideal if someone had already done all the fiddling and had more info regarding position of engine / box relative to front grill.

So up to this point

We have not located someone who's put an M57 in a series

A 6cyl chassis and bulkhead are different

Possibility of building a series body onto a defender rolling chassis

Axles brakes suspension and steering to remain original, though possibility of upgrades brakes. More info required. Axle robustness upgrades needed. More info required.

Potentiometer can be used on existing accelerator cable for the ECU.

Not sure about the requirement for an in tank fuel pump. No big deal, but probably some form of control requirements around flow rate by the ECU.

series3_M57 said:

The actual lure to series is due to frustrations whilst working on the defender
Plastic trim covering areas need access to cause sheer frustration. Zero enjoyment or tolerance for restrictions to maintenance.
Whereas series are components laid bare with instant access for the tools. Bliss.

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No offence, but I reckon that is total bollox!!

Defenders are easy to work on, esp a 200Tdi. There is hardly any plastic. About the same amount as there is in a Series 3 at any rate. The rest is easy access. And yes, owned both and done a lot of spannering on them.

For the record an M57 has loads of plastic components on it and is a far more complex engine than a Tdi and in a Series engine bay will likely be far more of a PITA to work on. By many magnitudes. Not too mention all of the bespoke and custom components a build like this will be requiring.

series3_M57 said:

PAS not interested in. Standard steering can remain if can keep the axles, albeit heavy duty components may be required after some testing.....pinion, flanges, shafts etc. trial and error.

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Suspect you'll have to revisit this. Most old Series motors have terrible steering unless it has been well maintained. With a big heavy M57 up front and lots of power I'd suspect standard steering might not be the most appropriate. I would also think the standard Series steering components such as the box and relay would likely cause issues with fitting an engine like an M57. Of course it it probably isn't impossible. But a PAS conversion will take up a lot less room typically. And if you want to retain a Series front panel and not go for a Defender front panel, you'll need all the space you can get. The relay and rods likely the biggest issue as they will be right where you would be wanting to fit the rad, intercooler and oil cooler.

You can get Series disc brake conversion kits.

Series 109 "One Ton" model had bigger [wider] drum brakes.