"Select Neutral" AGAIN!

Several months ago I replaced the ratio shift motor and the hi/lo ECU under the passenger seat in my 1995 RangeRover 2.5DT
It performed faultlessly for about 250 miles (only gets occasional use) until earlier in the week when the dreaded message appeared back on the console while I was driving along the road.

I can hear a noise that sounds like the shift motor moving position when the vehicle is in neutral (I didnt let it make the noise for long, as I fear this is what caused my last motor to toast itself)

I have several questions

1) What could cause this to go faulty again so soon? (secondhand parts fitted, but things were fine for 250 miles or so)

2) Can I pull the multiplug from the shift motor ECU and just drive in High ratio?

3) Is there any way I can take a reading from the shift motor multiplug to determine if the motor is in the correct positon so I dont cause any damage to the transfer box?

4) If I replace the ECU and Motor again how can I be sure that this wont happen in another 250 miles?

I would prefer to repair the vehicle, I use it to tow a 1.5T boat and low ratio I find makes pulling it up the slipway that bit easier.

Cheers for now

bb

Sounds like its jammed when you put boat in and take out do you submerge it ?? Only unplug if motor is constantly on other wise why do you need to unplug it.Sorry read again in neutral yea unplug until sorted.

I haven't had the boat out this year, all driving was done on roads. The motor hasn't been submerged.

Sounded like the motor was shifting back and forward but at no time did it shift out of high range.

I took the ecu out tonight and checked it - no signs of damage inside.

Should I just keep it out and leave motor connected?

Or refit and disconnect motor?

bb

Ah not what I thought salt water,I would take motor of and check its operation to confirm its moving .

"Select neutral" means you have tried to change range without box being in neutral. Something is telling the motor to run. Check all connections and switches if all good suspect ECU.

Update 9/8/12

Pulled the motor and ECU, motor tested ok on a 12v battery - Opened ECU and there's no sign or smell of burnt components.

How do you suggest I check the switches? (I assume you mean the switches in the motor)

Shift switch on dash appears to be functioning, when I pushed it with the engine running it responded by flashing the light, however it kept flashing for 20 seconds+ so I switched the engine off as I didnt want to burn out the motor (again!)

Beginning to pull my hair (what I have left) out!

Cheers

bb

bbjunkie said:

Update 9/8/12

Pulled the motor and ECU, motor tested ok on a 12v battery - Opened ECU and there's no sign or smell of burnt components.

How do you suggest I check the switches? (I assume you mean the switches in the motor)

Shift switch on dash appears to be functioning, when I pushed it with the engine running it responded by flashing the light, however it kept flashing for 20 seconds+ so I switched the engine off as I didnt want to burn out the motor (again!)

Beginning to pull my hair (what I have left) out!

Cheers

bb

Click to expand...

Too complex to explain, have a look at RAVE electrical for diagrams. Something is telling the motor to run. It is not supposed to run unless gearbox is in neutral, so it is being signaled to run by something. ECU does not have to be burned to be knackered. There are four switches in the motor each with a 0 or 1 position. The orientation of those switch positions Eg, 1 0 0 1, 0 0 1 1, 0 0 0 0, 1 0 1 1 Etc tells the motor where it is. But it is not supposed to move anywhere unless gearbox is in neutral. That is why you are getting select neutral message when it starts up. Sticking it on diagnostics may help.

Thanks for the quick reply Wammers

I've found the section in RAVE and after a little reading, it is beginning to make sense.

Is there a cheap diagnostic cable/software I could use to read these positions? (the EAS will need work within the next 18 months or so I reckon, so I dont mind spending a bit on the cable as I will no doubt need it for that)

I would prefer to do it this way than have to manually disconnect and check with a continuity tester, re-connect etc etc

Cheers

bb

Nanocom Evolution is the best option but is £350 or so

Hawkeye has good reports at £300

Faultmate Extreme is ££££

Faultmate FCR only reads and clears faults - £200-250ish

Ok, A bit more than the average OBDII cable on an auction site then!

I'll get the multimeter out and test the switches on the motor from the ECU connector, that way testing the connection by the motor also.

will post results later

Only the Engine ECU is OBDII compliant, all the other systems use their own protocols...

bbjunkie said:

Thanks for the quick reply Wammers

I've found the section in RAVE and after a little reading, it is beginning to make sense.

Is there a cheap diagnostic cable/software I could use to read these positions? (the EAS will need work within the next 18 months or so I reckon, so I dont mind spending a bit on the cable as I will no doubt need it for that)

I would prefer to do it this way than have to manually disconnect and check with a continuity tester, re-connect etc etc

Cheers

bb

Click to expand...

The EAS cable is unique to the EAS (£11 plus £3.91 P&P with a CD covering the EAS software, Airbag replacement and RAVE)

Cheers for the info Datatek, will keep you in mind for the EAS cable when it packs up!

Ok, update on the H/L ratio motor issue..

Disconnected C603 from the Transfer Box ECU and took some resistance measurements,
S1 1 ohm
S2 1 ohm
S3 5.7 ohms
S4 2.1 ohms

moving the shift motor to the opposite limit by applying 12v to pin1 and pin 25 of C603 I then measured:

S1 1.1 ohms
S2 1.1 ohms
S3 1.1 ohms
S4 open circuit

Therefore, I've figured position 2 is at "Zone 2" and position 1 could be either 0 0 1 0 (with a short on the wire going to S3) or 0 0 0 0 (with a high resistance on S3)

*Note.. This is very misleading, as in RAVE a closed switch is referred to as 0 and open as 1 !

Are the measurements at position 1 indicating an issue with S3? (S4 is displaying open circuit in one position so this wire isn't shorted)

As this is my second motor im thinking I may have a short on wire(s) returning to the ECU from the motor position switches - as a fault on both motors in such a short period while not being impossible, is highly unlikely.

I got my hands on a security torx bit and removed the old motor's switch, however discovered that it seems to be a sealed unit, therefore cannot inspect it for problems.

My next intentions are to measure the resistance resposition switches from the plug c658/c558

Anything else I should think about?

Thanks again!

bb

bbjunkie said:

Several months ago I replaced the ratio shift motor and the hi/lo ECU under the passenger seat in my 1995 RangeRover 2.5DT
It performed faultlessly for about 250 miles (only gets occasional use) until earlier in the week when the dreaded message appeared back on the console while I was driving along the road.

I can hear a noise that sounds like the shift motor moving position when the vehicle is in neutral (I didnt let it make the noise for long, as I fear this is what caused my last motor to toast itself)

I have several questions

1) What could cause this to go faulty again so soon? (secondhand parts fitted, but things were fine for 250 miles or so)

2) Can I pull the multiplug from the shift motor ECU and just drive in High ratio?

3) Is there any way I can take a reading from the shift motor multiplug to determine if the motor is in the correct positon so I dont cause any damage to the transfer box?

4) If I replace the ECU and Motor again how can I be sure that this wont happen in another 250 miles?

I would prefer to repair the vehicle, I use it to tow a 1.5T boat and low ratio I find makes pulling it up the slipway that bit easier.

Cheers for now

bb

Click to expand...

bbjunkie said:

Cheers for the info Datatek, will keep you in mind for the EAS cable when it packs up!

Ok, update on the H/L ratio motor issue..

Disconnected C603 from the Transfer Box ECU and took some resistance measurements,
S1 1 ohm
S2 1 ohm
S3 5.7 ohms
S4 2.1 ohms

moving the shift motor to the opposite limit by applying 12v to pin1 and pin 25 of C603 I then measured:

S1 1.1 ohms
S2 1.1 ohms
S3 1.1 ohms
S4 open circuit

Therefore, I've figured position 2 is at "Zone 2" and position 1 could be either 0 0 1 0 (with a short on the wire going to S3) or 0 0 0 0 (with a high resistance on S3)

*Note.. This is very misleading, as in RAVE a closed switch is referred to as 0 and open as 1 !

Are the measurements at position 1 indicating an issue with S3? (S4 is displaying open circuit in one position so this wire isn't shorted)

As this is my second motor im thinking I may have a short on wire(s) returning to the ECU from the motor position switches - as a fault on both motors in such a short period while not being impossible, is highly unlikely.

I got my hands on a security torx bit and removed the old motor's switch, however discovered that it seems to be a sealed unit, therefore cannot inspect it for problems.

My next intentions are to measure the resistance resposition switches from the plug c658/c558

Anything else I should think about?

Thanks again!

bb

Click to expand...

If you fitted second hand parts - who knows when they will fail - and yes it is totally likely the same thing can happen - let us assume the old motor did 100k miles - and the one you fitted had 99,750 miles250 miles later - it will be in the same condition as the one it replaced....

I am all for recycling second hand parts, and keeping prices as low as possible, but don't expect a s/h unit to last in a similar fashion to a new one.....and lets face it even a new one can fail out of the box!!

Lets face it the high low motor is not something that is used every day in the most case. Doing what it is supposed to do it should last for ever. Only when something else fails and it is being driven when it should not be, does it come under any strain. If the motor burns out, 9 times out of 10 it will be a consequence of another failure.

wammers said:

Lets face it the high low motor is not something that is used every day in the most case. Doing what it is supposed to do it should last for ever. Only when something else fails and it is being driven when it should not be, does it come under any strain. If the motor burns out, 9 times out of 10 it will be a consequence of another failure.

Click to expand...

Switch failure is also likely to be due to corrosion from lack of use or external problems.

Datatek said:

Switch failure is also likely to be due to corrosion from lack of use or external problems.

Click to expand...

If he rigs a test up, as he motors the unit he should see the switches change as per Rave as the motor goes through it's cycle. If all the switch readings match the ones in RAVE then the motor is ok. But he has to be careful motoring it as there is no ECU to stop power if it overruns. And that really could knacker it up.

wammers said:

If he rigs a test up, as he motors the unit he should see the switches change as per Rave as the motor goes through it's cycle. If all the switch readings match the ones in RAVE then the motor is ok. But he has to be careful motoring it as there is no ECU to stop power if it overruns. And that really could knacker it up.

Click to expand...

I'm not seeing all the combinations, I'm motoring it to one limit (detected by the big spark as it hits the end stop) then back to the other

At one end it looks more like it is indicating "zone2" instead of "right stop"

I will remove the motor and try removing the switch and turning it by hand instead of by motor (am slightly worried about shifting while motor is bolted to transfer case without engine running)

How do re sync the motor position with the switch array if I separate them?

Thanks

/bb

Not getting very far with this!

Decided to try manually moving the motor to HIGH by using a multimeter to read switch positions S1 S2 S3 and S4

Now here's where the fun starts..

Page 7 section B6 of ETM 1996 (5th edition) shows the switch readings relatave to the motor position.
"Hi MODE" is shown to be 0 0 1 0
It then says:

0 is switch closed
1 is switch open

(total opposite to what would make sense)

With this in mind, I moved the motor manually until I had closed circuit on switches S1 S2 S4 and open circuit on S3

Refitted the motor to the vehicle and without reconnecting the transfer box ECU started it up.

Now it's stuck in transfer neutral!

Seriously considering putting it in the paper and getting myself a decent Jap vehicle

Surely if you didn't connect the Transfer Box ECU, it would say Transfer Neutral cos it doesn't know where it is as it isn't giving the information to the BeCM - so the BeCM tells you it is in Transfer neutral as it knows no different....

Just on the off chance is there a fuse in position 11 under the Drivers Seat - I know it might sound like sucking eggs - but to get Transfer Neutral you put a Fuse in this space....if there is one there (or even a short in the wiring emulating a fuse) would put the car in Transfer Neutral....