Rivnut tool?

steve wrote:

|| Ian Rawlings wrote:
||| On 2006-05-13, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
|||
|||| So Richard needs a bigger tool to crush his nuts ?
|||
||| And he needs nuts he can screw with.
|||
||| Oh the possibilities.
|||
|| ...because the hole his nuts fit into is the wrong size and the
|| shoulder sticks out too far ?

Nah, no way. The hole I want my nuts to go into is the right size. But
when I put my nuts in the hole and start to screw, my nuts seem to swell up
and then pop out of the hole, when they should swell inside the hole and
make a nice tight fit. Once you've made a hole bigger, it won't get any
smaller (or so I've found), so I need to try again, keeping my nuts the same
size, but improving my insertion and screwing technique. A better tool
would help. Then it should stay nice and firm.

Fnarr.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Teeafit wrote:
> On the subject of Rivnuts etc, for those within easy reach of Todmorden
> (on the Yorkshire/Lancashire border) the firm of Harmsworth, Townley &
> Co Ltd have some offers on at the moment for setting tools and so on.
> Apparently they are moving to smaller premises, and a lot of stuff is
> up for sale. There are special offers until the end of this month.
>
>>From what I understand from a phone chat with the present owner (who
> recently inherited the company from her father?), the old place is a
> wonderful rabbit warren of un-thrown-away bits and pieces, and a real
> Alladin's cave. But they are modern enough to have a website
> (www.townleyltd.co.uk). +44 (0)1706 814931.
>

Townely is/was the most amazing place, all kinds of engineering junk -
well it was unless you wanted it, like gearboxes, motors, parts of
lathes, switches relays, chinks of metal.

It is a pale shadow of what it was 10 years ago, when it had a
wonderfully eccentric "keeper of the parts", who would spend ages
preparing the next catalogues, which would be barely distinguishable
from the last 10.

If anyone here wants anything, or wants me to collect it for them
(Eastnor anyone), I'll be happy to do so.

We may have met your sister, since we were witnesses for two of our
friends in Tod 5 years back.

Steve

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Derek wrote:
>
> || Its the usual factory fastening used on the mudflaps on the RRC and
> || Disco if you want to get a quick peek.On replacement most folk use a
> || round or panhead head bolt and lock nut which at first glance appear
> || similar but are more easily removed.
> || Derek
>
> Except that the mudflap fastenings aren't blind like the door panel of a
> Disco, which is the reason for using rivnuts in the first place.
>
> When I fitted the ladder to the previous Disco, I managed to fix the
> rivnuts in the door top but totally failed with those below the no. plate
> light. I did indeed fit through bolts and locknuts there, but taking off
> the inner door panel and getting the locknuts on the bolts from behind
> needed three hands and fingers like Spiderman. I ended up soldering one
> nut to a length of wire to get it into the right position behind the door
> lock. That wouldn't be possible in the top of the door frame, of course.
> That's why I was hoping to use the proper rivnuts, but do it right this
> time.
>
> --
> Rich
> ==============================
>
> I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.
Ah I was giving and example to show the curious what the Nut looked like
unless replaced.Now if thats the problem
there are few alternatives and like you say M6 seems to be the largest
common size -not sure what loading they are capable of but at least no
expensive special tool required- 45p? . Interesting site anyway
http://www.prifast.co.uk/jacknut.htm

Derek

Derek wrote:

|| "Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|| news:[email protected]...
||| Derek wrote:
|||
||||| Its the usual factory fastening used on the mudflaps on the RRC
||||| and Disco if you want to get a quick peek.

||| Except that the mudflap fastenings aren't blind like the door panel
||| of a Disco, which is the reason for using rivnuts in the first
||| place.

|| Ah I was giving and example to show the curious what the Nut looked
|| like unless replaced.Now if thats the problem
|| there are few alternatives and like you say M6 seems to be the
|| largest common size -not sure what loading they are capable of but
|| at least no expensive special tool required- 45p? . Interesting site
|| anyway http://www.prifast.co.uk/jacknut.htm
||
|| Derek

I found the Prifast site on my travels, but not the jacknut. Never heard of
them before, but it looks like it might do the trick. Looks like a rivnut,
but collapses into three legs rather than an expanded band. Looking at the
"special tool 45p", it looks exactly like what LR sent with the ladder,
except it has raised pips around the hole to stop the jacknut turning. This
is just what I had to do to my metal bar - stake a couple of sharp edges
around the hole with a centre punch, which prevented the rivnut turning with
the bolt.

Brilliant, thanks - I'll give 'em a ring tomorrow.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Richard Brookman wrote:

> This is just what I had to do to my metal bar - stake a couple of sharp edges
> around the hole with a centre punch, which prevented the rivnut turning with
> the bolt.
>
> Brilliant, thanks - I'll give 'em a ring tomorrow.

The usual trick is to use a spring washer adjacent to the Rivnut.

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Derek wrote:
>
> || "Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> || news:[email protected]...
> ||| Derek wrote:
> |||
> ||||| Its the usual factory fastening used on the mudflaps on the RRC
> ||||| and Disco if you want to get a quick peek.
>
> ||| Except that the mudflap fastenings aren't blind like the door panel
> ||| of a Disco, which is the reason for using rivnuts in the first
> ||| place.
>
> || Ah I was giving and example to show the curious what the Nut looked
> || like unless replaced.Now if thats the problem
> || there are few alternatives and like you say M6 seems to be the
> || largest common size -not sure what loading they are capable of but
> || at least no expensive special tool required- 45p? . Interesting site
> || anyway http://www.prifast.co.uk/jacknut.htm
> ||
> || Derek
>
> I found the Prifast site on my travels, but not the jacknut. Never heard
> of them before, but it looks like it might do the trick. Looks like a
> rivnut, but collapses into three legs rather than an expanded band.
> Looking at the "special tool 45p", it looks exactly like what LR sent with
> the ladder, except it has raised pips around the hole to stop the jacknut
> turning. This is just what I had to do to my metal bar - stake a couple
> of sharp edges around the hole with a centre punch, which prevented the
> rivnut turning with the bolt.
>
> Brilliant, thanks - I'll give 'em a ring tomorrow.
>
> --
> Rich
> ==============================
>
> I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.
glad it looks to be of use will you let us know how you get on I fancy
slinging a few in the toolbox I can think of a couple of times when I've
lost captive nuts that would have been the solution.
Derek

Derek wrote:

|| "Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|| news:[email protected]...
||| Derek wrote:
|||
||||| "Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
||||| news:[email protected]...
|||||| Derek wrote:
||||||
|||||||| Its the usual factory fastening used on the mudflaps on the RRC
|||||||| and Disco if you want to get a quick peek.
|||
|||||| Except that the mudflap fastenings aren't blind like the door
|||||| panel of a Disco, which is the reason for using rivnuts in the
|||||| first place.
|||
||||| Ah I was giving and example to show the curious what the Nut
||||| looked like unless replaced.Now if thats the problem
||||| there are few alternatives and like you say M6 seems to be the
||||| largest common size -not sure what loading they are capable of but
||||| at least no expensive special tool required- 45p? . Interesting
||||| site anyway http://www.prifast.co.uk/jacknut.htm
|||||
||||| Derek
|||
||| I found the Prifast site on my travels, but not the jacknut. Never
||| heard of them before, but it looks like it might do the trick.
||| Looks like a rivnut, but collapses into three legs rather than an
||| expanded band. Looking at the "special tool 45p", it looks exactly
||| like what LR sent with the ladder, except it has raised pips around
||| the hole to stop the jacknut turning. This is just what I had to
||| do to my metal bar - stake a couple of sharp edges around the hole
||| with a centre punch, which prevented the rivnut turning with the
||| bolt.
|||
||| Brilliant, thanks - I'll give 'em a ring tomorrow.
|||
||| --
||| Rich
||| ==============================
|||
||| I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.
|| glad it looks to be of use will you let us know how you get on I
|| fancy slinging a few in the toolbox I can think of a couple of times
|| when I've lost captive nuts that would have been the solution.
|| Derek

Yup, now I've seen they do the jacknuts in packets of 100 I have been
thinking of all sorts of uses.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Dougal wrote:

|| Richard Brookman wrote:
||
||| This is just what I had to do to my metal bar - stake a couple of
||| sharp edges around the hole with a centre punch, which prevented
||| the rivnut turning with the bolt.
|||
||| Brilliant, thanks - I'll give 'em a ring tomorrow.
||
|| The usual trick is to use a spring washer adjacent to the Rivnut.

Ah! Horse, bolt, door, stable, gone.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

> Anyone know anywhere I can buy or borrow a rivnut setting tool?
>
> I've spent all day trying to fit the access ladder to the rear door and
> have ruined 6 rivnuts (all I have) using the non-standard technique (loose
> bolt/washer/flat metal strip and tighten until it crushes). All 6 rivnuts
> crushed beautifully, but each time the expanding bit was too close to the
> rim at the top and they squeezed out of the hole rather than lock
> themselves in. I'm sure my technique isn't perfect, but I need to do a
> good job, so I'm now on the lookout for the "proper" tool. Instead of the
> "proper tool" who has mangled it so far
>
Was setting some nuts at work yesterday, and they were doing exactly what
you describe, i.e. rolling up out of the hole rather than setting under the
sheet. After much buggering about, I changed tool, and used the works tool
rather than my own (pretty much identical, at first glance)
With that tool, the nuts set perfectly every time, on further examination,
the only difference between the 2 tools is that the works tool has a very
shallow circumferential grove in the nozzle, so that the rim of the nut sits
in a grove and is prevented from splaying out.

So it would seem the answer to your original problem would be to somehow
make a groove in the washer, just big enough to seat the rim of the nut. Do
you know anyone with a lathe?

SimonJ wrote:
> Do
> you know anyone with a lathe?

Austin ?

Steve

<snip>
>
> So it would seem the answer to your original problem would be to somehow
> make a groove in the washer, just big enough to seat the rim of the nut. Do
> you know anyone with a lathe?
>
>
I have a lathe if that helps.

(Trowbridge, Wiltshire)

Cheers

Peter

puffernutter wrote:

|| <snip>
|||
||| So it would seem the answer to your original problem would be to
||| somehow make a groove in the washer, just big enough to seat the
||| rim of the nut. Do you know anyone with a lathe?
|||
|||
|| I have a lathe if that helps.
||
|| (Trowbridge, Wiltshire)
||
|| Cheers
||
|| Peter

Thanks for the offers of help chaps. However, I have found a solution -
jack nuts from Primary Fasteners http://www.prifast.co.uk/jacknut.htm.
Imported from the States, where they are known as molly nuts. I phoned them
today and a had a long chat with one of their engineers (not a salesman)
called Norman. He was a Geordie but lived two miles from Lode Lane, and had
just returned from the LR factory when the phone rang...

Had a long talk about fasteners, pull-out figures, tensile strength, shear
values in Newtons and all sorts. He knew his stuff all right. Upshot is -
if you're fitting things like side-steps, rivnuts are the only answer.
However, for lighter duty (like my ladder, where the weight is taken mainly
on the door frame) the jack nuts are fine and much easier to set. According
to Norman, you can set them with a machine screw and holding the jacknut
steady with your fingers. I told him about the problem with the rivnuts and
his reply was basically that without the right tool you will be very lucky
to get them to set properly.

So I've ordered a pack of 100 (£16 + VAT) and he's throwing the setting tool
in FOC. In the post tonight. When I've had a go at using them (weekend
earliest) I will report back.

Thanks to everyone for advice and comments.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Derek wrote:

|| Now if thats the problem
|| there are few alternatives and like you say M6 seems to be the
|| largest common size -not sure what loading they are capable of but
|| at least no expensive special tool required- 45p? . Interesting site
|| anyway http://www.prifast.co.uk/jacknut.htm
||
|| Derek

Cheers Derek. Now ordered and on their way (see elsewhere in thread).

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Derek wrote:

||||| Ah I was giving and example to show the curious what the Nut
||||| looked like unless replaced.Now if thats the problem
||||| there are few alternatives and like you say M6 seems to be the
||||| largest common size -not sure what loading they are capable of but
||||| at least no expensive special tool required- 45p? . Interesting
||||| site anyway http://www.prifast.co.uk/jacknut.htm

||| I found the Prifast site on my travels, but not the jacknut. Never
||| heard of them before, but it looks like it might do the trick.
||| Looks like a rivnut, but collapses into three legs rather than an
||| expanded band. Looking at the "special tool 45p", it looks exactly
||| like what LR sent with the ladder, except it has raised pips around
||| the hole to stop the jacknut turning. This is just what I had to
||| do to my metal bar - stake a couple of sharp edges around the hole
||| with a centre punch, which prevented the rivnut turning with the
||| bolt.

|| glad it looks to be of use will you let us know how you get on I
|| fancy slinging a few in the toolbox I can think of a couple of times
|| when I've lost captive nuts that would have been the solution.
|| Derek

Ordered from Prifast 1pm, arrived next morning's post. Total bill came to
about £20 for 100 with setting tool thrown in, so about 20p each. Had to
get M5 bolts separately.

Got the ladder mounted and secure in about an hour, easy peasy. The bolts
for the M5 jacknuts are only 5mm (used big washers), and the material of the
nuts is much softer than the rivnuts, so it certainly won't be as strong -
hence the advice not to use them for side steps etc. However, the ladder
has taken my <cough> stone quite happily this afternoon, so I think they are
OK in a lightly stressed application.*

They are really easy to use, and I've already mounted the fire extinguisher
to the rear door with them. I think the remaining 94 will stick around in
the toolbox and I will find plenty of uses for them.

Thanks for the tip, Derek, and to all who offered advice. Much appreciated.

(*Not minimising my girth, honest. The weight of the ladder and anything on
it is taken on the top of the door frame, so the nuts & bolts are there more
to keep it located than to bear any real load.)

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

On or around Sat, 20 May 2006 21:10:20 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>Ordered from Prifast 1pm, arrived next morning's post. Total bill came to
>about £20 for 100 with setting tool thrown in, so about 20p each. Had to
>get M5 bolts separately.
>
>They are really easy to use, and I've already mounted the fire extinguisher
>to the rear door with them. I think the remaining 94 will stick around in
>the toolbox and I will find plenty of uses for them.

sounds good. I assume they do other sizes as well...

does anyone do one with a stainless nut, that's what I want to know. I've
been embarking on a campaign to replace nuts and bolts anywhere outside a
vehicle with stainless, and the rivnut-style things are one place where it's
tricky - if the original bolt comes out, then you can put a stainless one
in, but I don't know how good stainless in a mild steel nut is. I guess at
least it'll not actually rust to the nut, nor will exposed thread inside
rust up and cause it to jam half-way out, which seems to be the main cause
of failure.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
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Austin Shackles wrote:

|| On or around Sat, 20 May 2006 21:10:20 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
|| <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
||
|||
||| Ordered from Prifast 1pm, arrived next morning's post. Total bill
||| came to about £20 for 100 with setting tool thrown in, so about 20p
||| each. Had to get M5 bolts separately.
|||
||| They are really easy to use, and I've already mounted the fire
||| extinguisher to the rear door with them. I think the remaining 94
||| will stick around in the toolbox and I will find plenty of uses for
||| them.
||
|| sounds good. I assume they do other sizes as well...
||
|| does anyone do one with a stainless nut, that's what I want to know.
|| I've been embarking on a campaign to replace nuts and bolts anywhere
|| outside a vehicle with stainless, and the rivnut-style things are
|| one place where it's tricky - if the original bolt comes out, then
|| you can put a stainless one in, but I don't know how good stainless
|| in a mild steel nut is. I guess at least it'll not actually rust to
|| the nut, nor will exposed thread inside rust up and cause it to jam
|| half-way out, which seems to be the main cause of failure.
|| --
|| Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
||
0123456789112345678921234567893123456789412345678951234567896123456789712345
|| 1 weebl: What's this? | in recognition of the fun that is weebl and
|| bob 2 bob: it a SigRuler! | check out the weebl and bob archive:
|| 3 weebl: How Handy! | http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/archives.php

They go up to M6 AFAICS, which is pretty big for most apps as it requires a
~10mm hole. The material seems to be pretty soft mild steel, possibly zinc
passivated. Stainless can be brittle (stands ready to be corrected) I
think, which would to some extent defeat the purpose of something which is
intended to be deformed early in its life. You could always use a bit of
copper grease on the threads if you are worried about seizing with rust.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Austin Shackles wrote:

> sounds good. I assume they do other sizes as well...
>
> does anyone do one with a stainless nut, that's what I want to know.

Yep - I've used a lot of them in the past at work.

http://www.bollhoff.com/web/usa/en/web.nsf/HTML/r_rivnut.html for an example


--
EMB

EMB wrote:

|| Austin Shackles wrote:
||
||| sounds good. I assume they do other sizes as well...
|||
||| does anyone do one with a stainless nut, that's what I want to know.
||
|| Yep - I've used a lot of them in the past at work.
||
|| http://www.bollhoff.com/web/usa/en/web.nsf/HTML/r_rivnut.html for an
|| example
||
||
|| --
|| EMB

At least I now know what I was suffering from - "spin-out".

Story of my life...

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

On or around Sun, 21 May 2006 09:38:27 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>They go up to M6 AFAICS, which is pretty big for most apps as it requires a
>~10mm hole. The material seems to be pretty soft mild steel, possibly zinc
>passivated. Stainless can be brittle (stands ready to be corrected) I
>think, which would to some extent defeat the purpose of something which is
>intended to be deformed early in its life. You could always use a bit of
>copper grease on the threads if you are worried about seizing with rust.

I was thinking more of the nut itself. Unless the nut and the squashy bit
are one piece - most such things I've seen are 2 bits, though.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"'Tis a mad world, my masters" John Taylor (1580-1633) Western Voyage, 1