Re: why i wish I still had a Land Rover

In article <1388370.e8IGu8MqUA@PolMobile>, Paul S. Brown
<[email protected]> writes
>hugh wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Most countries seem to manage, don't see why we can't.
>> Don't understand it. As a kid I lived in a rural village in the
>> Pennine Dales and we very rarely missed a day at school in the Winter
>> - and the roads were covered with packed snow.
>
>Ditto here across most of Scotland.
>
>I have a distinct feeling that the average aptitude of any given driver
>has dropped over the last few years. What has caused this I couldn't
>say, but I'm going to blame electrickery and the fact that a car is now
>seen as a right rather than a privilege as it used to be.

It's getting like America in Bristol these days - every junction and
almost every roundabout now has traffic lights (there are over 100 posts
in the centre alone now!). As a result many of the driving public have
no idea about safe or sensible driving.

IMHO, A skid-pan should be part of the driving test too.


Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

"Austin Shackles" wrote
> you can still get 7.50R16 in some ranges, limited tread choices though.

And most seem to be very chunky and therefor noisy on road.

>
> 235/85R16 are the next best thing, I suppose - work well on LWB vehicles
> and
> on RR/Discos used off-road.
>
> not convinced that significantly wider ones make sense except for specific
> conditions where flotation is more important than grip. Probably valid
> for
> deserts and heavily-laden vehicles.

I use wider ones to try to stop my vehicle churning up the grass paths on
the allotment. Others use normal cars and would not take kindly to me making
ruts.

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:57:33 +0000, PDannyD wrote:

> I've been driving my Land Rover to work these last few days due to
> the forecast of blizzards. NOTHING! Not one soddin' flake of snow
> here in Cumbria (southern part at least). Humph!

Not much more on the North Pennines part of Cumbria either. Couple of
cm of wet snow lying when I got home last night in the wee small
hours.

The same couldn't be said for the M74 in the morning though. Couple of
inches of snow, road conditions pregesively degraded down to compacted
snow and the heavies were starting to struggle up the, very slight,
hills. It wouldn't have taken much of an "incident" or much more snow
to turn the M74 into a linear carpark.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:49:23 +0000, Dave Smith wrote:

> - have a reactive gritter system rather than the usual proactive
> system most country's seem to have no problem with,

Well I guess it depends where you are. Our gritters are proactive and
reactive. Out before the frost comes down and when the conditions
close in, like they did in Febuary this year,
(http://www.howhill.com/weather/photos.php, start from 23 Feb up),
they just keep driving round in the hope of keeping at least some form
of track open. They do give up on the higher routes fairly quickly. If
it's drifting you just can't win and they risk that by going further
up by the time they come to get down, say 30mins later, not being able
to. They try to keep one route open bewtween the town and the two
villages and the lowest of the outgoing routes but it's not unusual
for all outside connections to be closed at least once or twice a
year.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:05:02 +0000, Dougal wrote:

> .... and too much salt on the roads. If one can't practice on
> snow/ice you'll never gain any experience.

The salt doesn't help but we havn't had any "bad" winters since the
early 80's, over 20s year ago. In broad terms anyone younger than
their mid 30's simply won't have had to chance to drive on snow or
ice, salt or no salt.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 23:37:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:05:02 +0000, Dougal wrote:
>
>> .... and too much salt on the roads. If one can't practice on
>> snow/ice you'll never gain any experience.
>
>The salt doesn't help but we havn't had any "bad" winters since the
>early 80's, over 20s year ago. In broad terms anyone younger than
>their mid 30's simply won't have had to chance to drive on snow or
>ice, salt or no salt.

We had a good one last year in stoke on trent when they decided they
didnt want to grit anything and then it all froze solid.
Lee_d will vouch for this as he probably worked for about 48 hours non
stop sorting it all out.

Last year was the first time i'd ever driven on proper ice (I'm
mid-20's). I dont ever plan to go out in a car again when it's like
that! (though i might go out for a play in the landy this year).

I managed to slide about a mile without hitting anything. It was
downhill and i managed to get a stalled car round 2 roundabouts. I'm
still scared of one of the set of bollards i almost hit.

I can remember cars spinning off all over the place on the dual
carriageway while i trundled along very slowly whilst muttering my
full weeks quota of swear words one after another and gripping the
wheel very tightly.

In article <[email protected]>, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> writes

>I managed to slide about a mile without hitting anything. It was
>downhill and i managed to get a stalled car round 2 roundabouts. I'm
>still scared of one of the set of bollards i almost hit.

That's a very interesting point. Last time we had serious snow here in
Bristol (as Dave L. pointed out), we hadn't had all the 'street
furniture' dumped at engineered pinch points and junctions.

Bristol is very hilly. If we have a real cold snap, I wonder how the
Council plans to clear all the car wrecks to make room for the emergency
services?

>I can remember cars spinning off all over the place on the dual
>carriageway while i trundled along very slowly whilst muttering my
>full weeks quota of swear words one after another and gripping the
>wheel very tightly.

Do a skid-pan course. It'll get you grinning like an idiot and give you
practical skills which, like riding a bike, can last a lifetime. As
others have said, snow and ice needn't be that bad if you know how to
handle them.

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

>
>Do a skid-pan course. It'll get you grinning like an idiot and give you
>practical skills which, like riding a bike, can last a lifetime. As
>others have said, snow and ice needn't be that bad if you know how to
>handle them.
>

Good advice. The main thing to be learnt is that when the road is
covered in ice the best place to be is in your living room, with a mug
of tea. The skid pan skills can help a lot, but ultimately the laws
of physics always win.

One thing I didn't learn on the skid pan, but did learn very quickly
last week....

Driving on a local road coming up to a junction behind another car.
Slow, lots of stopping distance. Noticed the road very icy - no
problem. As I am almost stopped, ABS comes in and car just keeps
going. And going. And going. No slowing at all - very odd. I
realised that autobox is still pushing just a bit, and the thus the
car is accelerating slightly when the ABS kicks in, then slowing as
the brakes come back on. Net result would have been a 1mph crash if I
hadn't slapped it into N.

--
Tim Hobbs

In article <[email protected]>, MVP
<mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> writes
>On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:40:18 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>In article <1388370.e8IGu8MqUA@PolMobile>, Paul S. Brown
>><[email protected]> writes
>>>hugh wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Most countries seem to manage, don't see why we can't.
>>>> Don't understand it. As a kid I lived in a rural village in the
>>>> Pennine Dales and we very rarely missed a day at school in the Winter
>>>> - and the roads were covered with packed snow.
>>>
>>>Ditto here across most of Scotland.
>>>
>>>I have a distinct feeling that the average aptitude of any given driver
>>>has dropped over the last few years. What has caused this I couldn't
>>>say, but I'm going to blame electrickery and the fact that a car is now
>>>seen as a right rather than a privilege as it used to be.
>>
>>It's getting like America in Bristol these days - every junction and
>>almost every roundabout now has traffic lights (there are over 100 posts
>>in the centre alone now!). As a result many of the driving public have
>>no idea about safe or sensible driving.
>>
>>IMHO, A skid-pan should be part of the driving test too.
>
>I'm giving serious thought to some time on a skid pan, aside from
>thursday I've not driven on anything slippy since 1998 and all that
>was done in a 4wd. i need to learn more about how to deal with it in a
>rear wheel drive.
>Was using traction alone to get up many hills, looked impressive as
>the back end slewed around spraying snow but was coming un-nervingly
>close to a wall at one point.

Huge fun. I spent a 1/2 day on the one at Castle Coombe a while back.
They had one FWD and one RWD vehicle available, and it was interesting
how much harder the RWD was in slippy conditions. It may just be that
I'm too used to FWD, as I've only ever driven FWD in snow+ice 'for real'
(except bikes, and my record on those in the snow isn't exactly
stellar!).

I've had Marge out once in the snow, and in difflock she refused to
slide, even going up a local 1-in-5 which we used to avoid the queued
traffic on the main road. She's got standard wheels on and ornery
town+countrys fitted. I agree with the other posters about tyre width
too - modern low profiles are a menace in slippy conditions. I worry
about the wife, as she's not a wonderful driver, but insists on the
wide-tyred Alhambra for work... <thinks> I wonder if there's a narrow
5-stud wheel that would fit as a replacement?

Town driving in snow is no fun - one slip adjacent to a line of
expensive, parked cars...

Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:12:32 +0000, MVP wrote:

> Was using traction alone to get up many hills, looked impressive as
> the back end slewed around spraying snow but was coming un-nervingly
> close to a wall at one point.

Spraying snow everywhere is wheel spin. A spinning wheel has far less
traction than one that isn't. I still remember the looks on the faces
of the drivers doing similar on a hill in Bristol(*) as I slowly drove
past them all. Nice and gentle, no wheel spin, 3rd gear, 15mph, 1.3
Fiesta I think.

For Simons benefit, Westbury Road as you come up onto The Downs from
the North. I must see if I can find my pictures of Bristol, Park St
and around from sometime in the early 80's.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 00:44:07 +0000, Tom Woods wrote:

> We had a good one last year in stoke on trent when they decided they
> didnt want to grit anything and then it all froze solid.

Liverpool was the same on Boxing Day, not a gritter in sight, there
had been a few cm fo snow Christmas Day followed by a slight thaw and
overnight freeze. Ice rink time...

But I mean a proper winter, not just a day or three with a sprinkling
of snow and a frost. A winter when it snows for a couple of days,
non-stop putting down at least 12" (30cm for the youngsters), daytime
maximums temperatures don't rise above freezing for weeks and more
snow.

Ice is nasty, you really have to think very far a head and be
extremely gentle, even a slightly dropped clutch can set you
sliding... Snow is much easier.

> I managed to slide about a mile without hitting anything. It was
> downhill and i managed to get a stalled car round 2 roundabouts. I'm
> still scared of one of the set of bollards i almost hit.

I know the feeling, I slid backwards down a 1:8 the other winter. Not
far before the gentle rubbing of the nearside along the verge/wall
brough me to a stop but it's not nice knowing there is sweet FA you
can do about it. I could have tried reverse and applying power but
being only 50 downhill yards from a T junction and a building opposite
I didn't rate my chances of being able to stop before crossing the
juction and hitting the building...

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

MVP wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:46:17 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> I'm giving serious thought to some time on a skid pan, aside from
>>> thursday I've not driven on anything slippy since 1998 and all that
>>> was done in a 4wd. i need to learn more about how to deal with it
>>> in a rear wheel drive.
>>> Was using traction alone to get up many hills, looked impressive as
>>> the back end slewed around spraying snow but was coming un-nervingly
>>> close to a wall at one point.
>>
>> Huge fun. I spent a 1/2 day on the one at Castle Coombe a while back.
>> They had one FWD and one RWD vehicle available, and it was
>> interesting how much harder the RWD was in slippy conditions. It may
>> just be that I'm too used to FWD, as I've only ever driven FWD in
>> snow+ice 'for real' (except bikes, and my record on those in the
>> snow isn't exactly stellar!).
>>
>> I've had Marge out once in the snow, and in difflock she refused to
>> slide, even going up a local 1-in-5 which we used to avoid the queued
>> traffic on the main road. She's got standard wheels on and ornery
>> town+countrys fitted. I agree with the other posters about tyre width
>> too - modern low profiles are a menace in slippy conditions. I worry
>> about the wife, as she's not a wonderful driver, but insists on the
>> wide-tyred Alhambra for work... <thinks> I wonder if there's a narrow
>> 5-stud wheel that would fit as a replacement?
>>
>> Town driving in snow is no fun - one slip adjacent to a line of
>> expensive, parked cars...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Simonm.
>
> Was a choice on friday of my jaguar (RWD) or the wifes saab (FWD),
> tyres very similar, perhaps wider on the jag, but the wifes ABS is
> known-duff so the Jag it was.
> FWD is certainly better than RWD in the slippy, there are many things
> you can do with the front wheels to improve your traction, not alot
> you can do in a RWD except find a spinning-speed that gives some
> forward motion.

Or maybe lacing the boot with bags of cement! difficult in a FWD.

>
> Just spoken to a girl I know in scotland, near dunblane, recently got
> herself a little suzuki thingy 4x4, happy bunny.



--
If Your specification is vague or imprecise, you'll likely get what you
asked for not what you wanted!

He who says it cannot be done would be wise not to interrupt her doing
it.

SpamTrapSeeSig wrote so intelligently that the:
> public have no idea about safe or sensible driving.
>
> IMHO, A skid-pan should be part of the driving test too.

Oh how I agree with you. Every county ought to have a skid-pan for
practice.
FWIW many years ago we used to get those long, cold, snowy winters. The
first fall of snow and my father and I used to practice skidding for a
couple of hours on a disused aerodrome - brilliant experience ;-)


--

Di

"The hurrier I am the behinder I get"

Diane Brookman wrote:
> SpamTrapSeeSig wrote so intelligently that the:
>
>>public have no idea about safe or sensible driving.
>>
>>IMHO, A skid-pan should be part of the driving test too.
>
>
> Oh how I agree with you. Every county ought to have a skid-pan for
> practice.
> FWIW many years ago we used to get those long, cold, snowy winters. The
> first fall of snow and my father and I used to practice skidding for a
> couple of hours on a disused aerodrome - brilliant experience ;-)
>
>
OK. so what's the consensus for snow and ice driving?
4WD (obviously)
High gear? How best to cope in an auto?
Diff lock on or off?
Man in front with red flag?

--
jermec, attempting pre-emptive preparations

You, in the red uniform, go see what that noise is!

....and jermec spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...

> OK. so what's the consensus for snow and ice driving?
> 4WD (obviously)

Yup. Series vehicles in 2WD can be a lot of fun on the flat, though.
Hangin' out the arse-end, and all that.

> High gear?

I've never worried too much about starting in 2nd and all that stuff. I've
found just being gentle with a sensitive right foot is enough. If you feel
the wheels start to spin, ease off straight away and try to get it to bite
again using LESS power. The worst thing is to spin the wheels as if speed
of rotation = more chance of traction. In fact, the spinning wheels melt
the layer of snow underneath, which immediately re-freezes to give you a
layer of ice - the worst possible surface to start off on.

How best to cope in an auto?

Gently, as above. Auto chooses the gear and changes gently, which is good.

> Diff lock on or off?

Depends. You have to remember that with a difflock in, the front and rear
will be fighting each other to some extent and will cause a certain amount
of tyre slip. In really bad conditions, this is acceptable, as the tyres
are scrabbling all over the place anyway. If the conditions are reasonable,
you may do better (by maintaining unbroken traction) with the centre diff
free to do its thing. As it says on the bulkhead plates of some Landies,
use the diff lock "if traction is likely to be lost", rather than routinely
just because the surface is dodgy.

> Man in front with red flag?

Ideal, if he also has a 10-tonner with a crane to shift the ****s who
encountered momentary wheelspin, felt the car slide 6" to one side, and
abandoned the car in the middle of the road. You'd have to keep him
supplied with brandy, which may be an expense you could do without.

All the above relates to snow driving. On ice, just keep your fingers
crossed! All the above comments squared, plus a bit of good luck.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

On or around Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:32:45 +0000, Tim Hobbs <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:
>Driving on a local road coming up to a junction behind another car.
>Slow, lots of stopping distance. Noticed the road very icy - no
>problem. As I am almost stopped, ABS comes in and car just keeps
>going. And going. And going. No slowing at all - very odd. I
>realised that autobox is still pushing just a bit, and the thus the
>car is accelerating slightly when the ABS kicks in, then slowing as
>the brakes come back on. Net result would have been a 1mph crash if I
>hadn't slapped it into N.

and while you're all out playing in the land rovers...

remember, please - OK, you have 4WD and difflocks and it'll go where
ordinary cars won't, but when it comes to stopping it mostly they weigh
about 2 tons and there's no more grip to be had on icy stuff then auntie
mabel's mini metro has.

serious point - it can be very hard to stop one of solihull's finest on
slippery stuff. And don't rely on ABS to get you out of trouble, on really
slippery going it still won't stop.

On or around Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:12:32 +0000, MVP
<mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> enlightened us thusly:

>I'm giving serious thought to some time on a skid pan, aside from
>thursday I've not driven on anything slippy since 1998 and all that
>was done in a 4wd. i need to learn more about how to deal with it in a
>rear wheel drive.

if you ever get the chance, have a go on London Transport's bus skid pan...
they don't let you drive it, unfortunately.

basically, (when I did it, at an open day at the Chiswick garage) you get on
a routemaster, which then takes off, drives round 3 sides of a square and
comes onto the skid pan at probably about 25 mph. The drive then causally
knocks the handbrake on...

On or around Sun, 27 Nov 2005 17:41:50 -0000, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Yup. Series vehicles in 2WD can be a lot of fun on the flat, though.
>Hangin' out the arse-end, and all that.

who, me?


I love empty, snowy car parks...


once tried playing in the sierra 4x4 with it's viscous-coupled diffs in rear
and centre, and 2/3 rear:1/3 front torque split. And by god, it's
effective, on ordinary low profile road tyres.

I've had it driving up an icy hill which was slippery enough that the
handbrake wouldn't hold it unless I rolled one wheel back onto the grass - I
stopped to help a bloke in a FWD escort van, who, having come to a stop with
wheelspin, got out leaving it idle in first and started pushing. I felt he
deserved encouragement. Having pushed him 'til he was rolling again, i went
back to the Ford, and it pulled away with minimum fuss and hardly any slip.

Must find the cash to sort it and get it back on the road...

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 11:46:17 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig wrote:

> Town driving in snow is no fun - one slip adjacent to a line of
> expensive, parked cars...

Ditches and drystone walls aren't very friendly either but are not
quite so expensive to repair. B-)

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Tom Woods <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny about:

> We had a good one last year in stoke on trent when they decided they
> didnt want to grit anything and then it all froze solid.
> Lee_d will vouch for this as he probably worked for about 48 hours non
> stop sorting it all out.

I know I had a full head of hair before the start of the shift ...now
look...

http://www.lrproject.com/morph/morphmains/imagepages/image12.html

;-) Piccy taken by my little man so no 9iss taking!

They did grit but then it rained damned hard then froze, hailed, sleeted,
froze etc etc. The downfall was the location of the gritters refil sites and
the inability once it all froze to get more grit out due to lots of people
clogging up the roads. To say a few lessons were learned is an
understatement. I've seen more salt since than ever before.

> I can remember cars spinning off all over the place on the dual
> carriageway while i trundled along very slowly whilst muttering my
> full weeks quota of swear words one after another and gripping the
> wheel very tightly.

Yeah, I got so distraught I called Hugh ;-) and the team who managed to
clear
some major arterial junctions and get things moving again. Amazing how some
simple unblockages can help.

I would like some real good snow that last for Months where we all have fun
but no body gets harmed etc.

My daily drive is now a Renault laguna (Mrs D snaffled the Disco)... or the
other choice is Morph.. H'mmm 3 ton of sliding green oval or a paper bag on
wheels going no where. Sadly Percy is still awaiting his transplant.

Lee D
--
www.lrproject.com