Project 2A 109

Hi all,

So a while a go I was asking about series 109's etc. An opportunity has come up to buy one, but I had a couple of questions that I thought I'd put out as it's an area I'm not too familiar with.

The land rover I've found is a project (1963 model), all the body panels are there and in good nick, except the bulkhead which needs a fair bit done but that's expected. The chassis is rotten beyond repair, too many holes to even be a colander. This particular one has sat for a long time and has a seized engine gearbox/transfer case, and the axles are in a similar state so a rebuild is going to be needed on all. I'm not under any illusion that this is cheap, looking at current prices for bits and bobs I wasn't surprised when I saw my total cost spreadsheet numbers hit the roof, this isn't even including all the little parts that would need to be sourced too.

So as this price is looking astronomical I've been looking at other ways around it. Another later model has appeared which from what I've seen from the seller has a very sound chassis. It also has and overdrive, working gearbox etc, basically it is a mechanical bargain.

Obviously in the long run I want to avoid a bitsa and once I've saved enough, work would slowly begin on making the 1963 2a as original as possible. I would keep all the seized bits just in case as they are original.

My question after this whole essay is for the meantime is it viable to basically keep all the mechanics, brake system, steering assembly and chassis from one and swap over all the body panels? How does this effect the V5/registration, ideally I want to keep the earlier landys 63 age plate on it.

I can't answer your question, but don't just assume the engine and gearbox are beyond repair. It all depends how seized everything is and why. There may be plenty of life left with some tlc and know-how

JJ6 said:

is it viable to basically keep all the mechanics, brake system, steering assembly and chassis from one and swap over all the body panels?

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Yes it is but visit Glencoyne, s website for info on chassis swaps.

You'd need to be someone who absolutely loves blood, sweat and tears and spending lots of money to take on a vehicle that needs so much work. I'm not criticising you but wouldn't it be easier, cheaper and less draining to just buy one that's already roadworthy. Many with good intentions have taken on complete rebuilds and ended up abandoning them after spending months of work and hundreds if not thousands of pounds. I bought mine with a 12 month mot on it but still spent several hundred pounds on it and it still looks the same but is more reliable and drivable.

Col

Just re read your post. If you were to use the chassis from a newer series then I think technically it would have that I. D.
I don't think you would have any trouble putting older parts onto a newer vehicle though.
It is a bit of a grey area really and best not to get VOSA involved..... ie keep quiet about it. Like I said though have a shufty at. Glencoyne

This looks quite straight. The reg matches the description. The bulkhead and body don't match, but it is a S3 and should be tax exempt. Needs work but some of the parts are with it.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LWB-109-land-rover/163989250196?hash=item262e856094:g:OJMAAOSwI11d9nQM

rob1miles said:

This looks quite straight. The reg matches the description. The bulkhead and body don't match, but it is a S3 and should be tax exempt. Needs work but some of the parts are with it.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LWB-109-land-rover/163989250196?hash=item262e856094:g:OJMAAOSwI11d9nQM

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Shhh. Got my eye on that one.

Thanks for the advice and link guys, don’t worry I’ve got my eye on another! I’ve sent Richard at glencoyne an email so we’ll see what he says. My logic was if you restore a landy with pieces you find while trying to be period, I don’t see a problem with just finding them in one place albeit they are on a donor car.

JJ6 said:

Thanks for the advice and link guys, don’t worry I’ve got my eye on another! I’ve sent Richard at glencoyne an email so we’ll see what he says. My logic was if you restore a landy with pieces you find while trying to be period, I don’t see a problem with just finding them in one place albeit they are on a donor car.

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Let us know what he says.

I've not had a reply yet from Glencoyne and don't want to keep the sellers waiting too long, so if anyone else has any ideas or knowledge I'd be really grateful. This is a direct quote from the gov website;

Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

• the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
• a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)
• the original unmodified frame (motorbike)
• a new frame of the same specification as the original (motorbike)

You must also have 2 other major components from the original vehicle from the following lists.

For cars or light vans:

• suspension (front and back)
• steering assembly
• axles (both)
• transmission
• engine

This is what the dvla website says about the topic. In my case I am wanting to use a rolling chassis from a series 3 and put the whole series 2 bodywork on it with a bit of work. I want to keep the 1963 series 2a numberplate on the final car. From looking at the above keeping the 'original unmodified bodyshell' seems enough to keep the numberplate, so long as I then keep 2 of the following bullet points above as to work with the system. My initial thought is to keep the steering assembly and suspension, as the engine transmission and axles will need a lot of work and money spent on reconditioning.

This seems to be along the lines of what the Glencoyne website says, but it seems as if the current system has been ever so slightly updated as I no longer see some of the points he has quoted on the .gov website, especially the part about second hand chassis. The links are both below;

http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/vosalaw.htm

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

If anyone has been through this process before I'd be grateful for any pointers or advice. If not I think it might be useful to hear everyones interpretation of the two websites and maybe what they'd do in this situation. The reason for this strange route is that it is considerably cheaper than any other option I have seen. Yes it may be easier to buy a complete series 2 but they are relatively rare in a good state and the current prices of the 100's I've seen online and many I've seen in person is I would say a little ridiculous. This is also just an idea, if it doesn't work out oh well just trying a different approach.

Sorry for writing so much but I feel it's easier to explain the whole idea so that it's as clear as possible. As I have shown in a different thread this is my dream 109 looks wise, it's been done really nicely in my opinion and although maybe not 100% original as I said I think it looks smart so that's the goal. Mechanically I want a 2.25 petrol, standard gearbox and overdrive. (This one if you look into it has a 200tdi which I'm not sold on putting into a series Landy yet)



As you can see it is a series 2a but on a chassis with extended spring hangers, it also has Salisbury axles. My thought as I wrote before is use a barn find series 2a, which would get that look. If I rebuild this barn find I would get a richards galv chassis with the extended spring hangers and then rebuild the engine and gearbox from the original 2a and put them on it with it's complete original bodywork.

So that was the idea then I found a mechanically perfect series 3 with extended spring hangers, Salisbury axles and an overdrive. As I would've been looking for these axles anyway and potentially a new gearbox and engine (I'm not sure how expensive the rebuilds going to be until I've bought it and taken it apart realistically) I thought wow this series 3 is basically a bundle buy of all the parts I'd be sourcing anyhow so why not get them all of this landy.

So this is the backstory and hopefully gives you guys an idea of why this may seem like an odd idea to come up with or even suggest.

JJ6 said:

....So that was the idea then I found a mechanically perfect series 3 with extended spring hangers, Salisbury axles and an overdrive. .......

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The obvious answer is to rebuild this vehicle. DVLA is clear that new chassis needs to be like for like replacement and new. Admittedly there is very little chance that it would actually cause you a problem but it would be a bugger to go to all that work and have a problem getting it road legal.

JJ6 said:

Hi all,

So a while a go I was asking about series 109's etc. An opportunity has come up to buy one, but I had a couple of questions that I thought I'd put out as it's an area I'm not too familiar with.

The land rover I've found is a project (1963 model), all the body panels are there and in good nick, except the bulkhead which needs a fair bit done but that's expected. The chassis is rotten beyond repair, too many holes to even be a colander. This particular one has sat for a long time and has a seized engine gearbox/transfer case, and the axles are in a similar state so a rebuild is going to be needed on all. I'm not under any illusion that this is cheap, looking at current prices for bits and bobs I wasn't surprised when I saw my total cost spreadsheet numbers hit the roof, this isn't even including all the little parts that would need to be sourced too.

So as this price is looking astronomical I've been looking at other ways around it. Another later model has appeared which from what I've seen from the seller has a very sound chassis. It also has and overdrive, working gearbox etc, basically it is a mechanical bargain.

Obviously in the long run I want to avoid a bitsa and once I've saved enough, work would slowly begin on making the 1963 2a as original as possible. I would keep all the seized bits just in case as they are original.

My question after this whole essay is for the meantime is it viable to basically keep all the mechanics, brake system, steering assembly and chassis from one and swap over all the body panels? How does this effect the V5/registration, ideally I want to keep the earlier landys 63 age plate on it.

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After reading through the thread, it seems to me that there are two options, and they depend on what you actually want.

If you are somebody who wants a project, and are equipped and have premises suitable for that, I would suggest you restore the barn find as standard, and register it with the original number plate.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for a practical classic that you can drive straight away, it would be better to use the donor vehicle, or indeed just buy another as some have suggested.

Trying to combine the two vehicles seems likely to be a lot of work, and may lead to problems with DVLA, and end up with one functional vehicle instead of two at the end of it all.

Thanks for the replies guys! I'll keep looking just thought I'd ask and get some opinions. If/when I find the right one does putting the extended hangers and shackles on (either by welding on new dumb irons or a new galv chassis made with those options) does that void it being a like for like replacement? I've asked around lots and am just waiting for replies (it's christmas so appreictae people are busy). I was under the impression after reading threads and information that despite extended hangers and shackles not being original, as they are the same type of suspension it is similar enough that it is ok? It's when you swap leafs for coils for example that this isn't allowed? or have I interpreted it wrong and grabbed the complete wrong end of the stick.

JJ6 said:

Thanks for the replies guys! I'll keep looking just thought I'd ask and get some opinions. If/when I find the right one does putting the extended hangers and shackles on (either by welding on new dumb irons or a new galv chassis made with those options) does that void it being a like for like replacement? I've asked around lots and am just waiting for replies (it's christmas so appreictae people are busy). I was under the impression after reading threads and information that despite extended hangers and shackles not being original, as they are the same type of suspension it is similar enough that it is ok? It's when you swap leafs for coils for example that this isn't allowed? or have I interpreted it wrong and grabbed the complete wrong end of the stick.

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Just out of interest, why do you want to put extended hangers on?
A Series on a new galvanised chassis is a pretty functional vehicle, and should go on for 20 years or more without any issues.
And with any classic vehicle, staying standard, apart from a few practical mods like an alternator instead of dynamo, will tend to hold value better than modified, and gives no issues with registration, etc.
A standard petrol Series is a perfectly usable classic for weekend jollies, classic runs, or as a daily drive if you don't intend much high speed long distance work.

JJ6 said:

Thanks for the replies guys! I'll keep looking just thought I'd ask and get some opinions. If/when I find the right one does putting the extended hangers and shackles on (either by welding on new dumb irons or a new galv chassis made with those options) does that void it being a like for like replacement? I've asked around lots and am just waiting for replies (it's christmas so appreictae people are busy). I was under the impression after reading threads and information that despite extended hangers and shackles not being original, as they are the same type of suspension it is similar enough that it is ok? It's when you swap leafs for coils for example that this isn't allowed? or have I interpreted it wrong and grabbed the complete wrong end of the stick.

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I reckon you're overthinking it.....relax take a breather

Even welding an engine mount in a different location technically voids tax exempt status as not same as original. Loads of people do it but risk of problems if inspected by Vosa or insurance assessor after an accident.

Blackburn said:

Even welding an engine mount in a different location technically voids tax exempt status as not same as original. Loads of people do it but risk of problems if inspected by Vosa or insurance assessor after an accident.

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Technically yes but not necessarily if it was done 30 years ago so how would that be proven one way or the other.

easily if the engine fitted was not available 30 years ago.

JJ6 said:

If/when I find the right one does putting the extended hangers and shackles on (either by welding on new dumb irons or a new galv chassis made with those options) does that void it being a like for like replacement?...........

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The build you are referencing used a 1 Ton spec chassis. Although very heavily based on the standard Land Rover of the time it was a separate model and very distinguishable from a standard Land Rover, if you carried this out the chassis spec would no longer match the V5 (spec as in shape, it would clearly be 1 Ton spec but V5 would show different model). Although I'm certainly no gambling man I'd be prepared to bet a pound to a pinch of sh!t that the DVLA would consider the swapping of the chassis to a new one form a different model as a major modification and therefore require inspection/re-registering.