P38 RaRo bits into 101's (Mother?)

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T

Tom Woods

Guest
Someone i know is breaking a 90's P38 rangerover and I was wondering
about the feasability of fitting its guts into my 101..

The trouble is that i know bugger all about these newfangled range
rovers!

Its a 4.0 injection with an auto gearbox, which in my mind would go
quite nicely in a 101!

How tricky would this be to do? - Is it a straight forward job? I'm
assuming that the engine would fit stright in, but what would i have
to do with the gearbox bits - I'm assuming i would need to fit new
mounts and posibly props?
anything else? I'm new to automatics too but I'm starting to feel lazy
and it would save a lot of work in the 101!
Is it also worth sticking with the efi bits or keeping the carbs? I'd
be LPGing it.

I know Martyn has done something similar with Grumble.. Can you tell
me anything more Martyn?
 
Tom Woods <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> Someone i know is breaking a 90's P38 rangerover and I was wondering
> about the feasability of fitting its guts into my 101..
>
> The trouble is that i know bugger all about these newfangled range
> rovers!
>
> Its a 4.0 injection with an auto gearbox, which in my mind would go
> quite nicely in a 101!
>
> How tricky would this be to do? - Is it a straight forward job? I'm
> assuming that the engine would fit stright in, but what would i have
> to do with the gearbox bits - I'm assuming i would need to fit new
> mounts and posibly props?
> anything else? I'm new to automatics too but I'm starting to feel lazy
> and it would save a lot of work in the 101!
> Is it also worth sticking with the efi bits or keeping the carbs? I'd
> be LPGing it.
>
> I know Martyn has done something similar with Grumble.. Can you tell
> me anything more Martyn?

Tis on my wish list, I'm currently battling with the "Origionality" of it
all Morph being Morph. If Morph was any old truck It would be done. Dunno
about the p38 gearbox thou... hang on..

Looks like your Choice is ZF 5 speed stptronicor GM5, the GM5 only appears
to be fitted to the diesels.

Can't get a good view of the transfer box ouputs from here so you need to
pay attention to these. You should retain your 101 manifolds for the exhaust
at least.

Other question is how are Hi/Lo selected and how is the diff lock engadged.
If both are manual you need to get creative. If the Diff lock is electronic
then that would be a bonus as Bowden cables seem to cost a few quid, thats
the cable which currently selects Hi/Lo.

EFi gubbings needs to fit width wise.. height won't be as much of an issue
as the gear change lever will be no more.

Definatly need to get the tape measure out me thinks.

Lee
--
www.lrproject.com







 
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:04:52 -0000, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tis on my wish list, I'm currently battling with the "Origionality" of it
>all Morph being Morph. If Morph was any old truck It would be done. Dunno
>about the p38 gearbox thou... hang on..

Since youve done a fair few 'mods' already, would a new engine and box
make much difference. You'd be sticking with rover bits...

>Looks like your Choice is ZF 5 speed stptronicor GM5, the GM5 only appears
>to be fitted to the diesels.

Looking at 101fc.net, Martyn has a ZF 4 speed. Wonder how much
difference there is? (apart from the extra gear!)

>Can't get a good view of the transfer box ouputs from here so you need to
>pay attention to these. You should retain your 101 manifolds for the exhaust
>at least.

Aye - especially since the exhaust is new!

>Other question is how are Hi/Lo selected and how is the diff lock engadged.
>If both are manual you need to get creative. If the Diff lock is electronic
>then that would be a bonus as Bowden cables seem to cost a few quid, thats
>the cable which currently selects Hi/Lo.

Are the cables the same as a 90 handbrake cable? I have one of them
stashed as it looked like it should do the job incase i fitted an
overdrive!

>EFi gubbings needs to fit width wise.. height won't be as much of an issue
>as the gear change lever will be no more.

How complicated is rover EFi?
I'm going to LPG the truck either way.. -

Austin - what sort of LPG kit am i looking at for a rover v8i?. I was
originally looking at the cheapest stuff i could get (like i have on
my carbed car), but do you need difference stuff for an EFi - or might
i just aswell stick with the carbs and the nice simple lpg mixer that
goes in the elbow?

>Definatly need to get the tape measure out me thinks.

I'm sure it could 'fit'! :) Im just wondering if the bits are suitable
and how big a job im looking at.


 
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:04:52 -0000, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Looks like your Choice is ZF 5 speed stptronicor GM5, the GM5 only appears
>to be fitted to the diesels.

Is the gear selector on an auto on a cable rather than stuck to the
top of the box?
That would make my engine cover a lot nicer and mean less linkages all
over the place!
 
Tom Woods <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:04:52 -0000, "Lee_D"
> <[email protected]> wrote:

> Is the gear selector on an auto on a cable rather than stuck to the
> top of the box?
> That would make my engine cover a lot nicer and mean less linkages all
> over the place!

Tis on the 4 speed and on Pecys BW66. Not certain about the 5 speed but
suspect so or it would rock all over the shop.

Lee


 
On or around Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:29:30 +0000, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>Austin - what sort of LPG kit am i looking at for a rover v8i?. I was
>originally looking at the cheapest stuff i could get (like i have on
>my carbed car), but do you need difference stuff for an EFi - or might
>i just aswell stick with the carbs and the nice simple lpg mixer that
>goes in the elbow?

Flapper or hotwire?

either way, the best answer is the cunning relays to disconnect the
injectors. for a flapper one you shoudl have an opener to hold the flap
open on LPG, and/or a backfire protector so you don't risk exploding the
AFM.

Chris Perfect isn't doing gas (or springs) any more but a local chap has
taken over running the business. Still the same phone number and website,
http://www.chrisperfect.com,

They do a variety of kits aimed at self-install. whether they'll sell part
kits generally I don't know.
>
>>Definatly need to get the tape measure out me thinks.
>
>I'm sure it could 'fit'! :) Im just wondering if the bits are suitable
>and how big a job im looking at.
>
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
>> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!
 
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 23:04:17 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:29:30 +0000, Tom Woods
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>
>>Austin - what sort of LPG kit am i looking at for a rover v8i?. I was
>>originally looking at the cheapest stuff i could get (like i have on
>>my carbed car), but do you need difference stuff for an EFi - or might
>>i just aswell stick with the carbs and the nice simple lpg mixer that
>>goes in the elbow?
>
>Flapper or hotwire?

I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!)

>either way, the best answer is the cunning relays to disconnect the
>injectors. for a flapper one you shoudl have an opener to hold the flap
>open on LPG, and/or a backfire protector so you don't risk exploding the
>AFM.
>
>Chris Perfect isn't doing gas (or springs) any more but a local chap has
>taken over running the business. Still the same phone number and website,
>http://www.chrisperfect.com,
>
>They do a variety of kits aimed at self-install. whether they'll sell part
>kits generally I don't know.

Hmm. they arn't much more expensive than the normal kits :). I'll have
to pop into the gas place here and ask them.

 
Tom Woods wrote:

> I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!)

If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS

> Hmm. they arn't much more expensive than the normal kits :). I'll have
> to pop into the gas place here and ask them.

I don't think that this is going to be particularly cheap or easy. For
a start if you take the engine as it is and drop it in you may find
that your have problems if you want to LPG it leading to you needing a
new ECU chip (it'll drop into limp home mode as the computer will
recognise that it has lost control of the engine). I don't know how
integrated the gems ECU is with the rest of the vehicle, but you are
going to want to take EVERYTHING you can out of the donor, Lee_D
mentions keeping manifolds, well - you're going to want to amend your
downpipes at least then to get lambda sensors in, there will be a LOT
of work in getting the thing going properly. And it is always the
little things that eat up money.

I believe that Martyn used the front of an old V8 to get a dizzy on and
had SU carbs but he can no doubt tell you how got his v8 running, I may
well be wrong there.

If it were my vehicle then I'd definately fit the 4.0 but junk the gems
parts and use an aftermarket controller to control fuel and spark which
will get around most of the above issues nicely and if you're good at
selling on eBay you might even break even with cost.

Regards

William MacLeod

 

"Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Someone i know is breaking a 90's P38 rangerover and I was wondering
> about the feasability of fitting its guts into my 101..
>
> The trouble is that i know bugger all about these newfangled range
> rovers!
>
> Its a 4.0 injection with an auto gearbox, which in my mind would go
> quite nicely in a 101!
>
> How tricky would this be to do? - Is it a straight forward job? I'm
> assuming that the engine would fit stright in, but what would i have
> to do with the gearbox bits - I'm assuming i would need to fit new
> mounts and posibly props?
> anything else? I'm new to automatics too but I'm starting to feel lazy
> and it would save a lot of work in the 101!
> Is it also worth sticking with the efi bits or keeping the carbs? I'd
> be LPGing it.
>
> I know Martyn has done something similar with Grumble.. Can you tell
> me anything more Martyn?

Sorry if this is repeating what has already been said by others, but here's
my tuppenceworth.

P38 has the prop-shafts on the wrong side, so the P38 box/transfer box is
out.
4.0 V8 is either gems (>99) or Motronic (99>) management, either of which
would be exceedingly complex to wire in, due to immobilisation issues.
(Motronic needs to have a substantial part of the vehicle harness and the
BCU computer or it won't work, Gems may be the same)
Use the 4.0 engine, fit a 3.9 hotwire efi system complete, including inlet
manifold (just don't connect the knock, crank and cam sensors) and harness.
Fit an early-type timing cover (you need to replace the cam and followers as
well) to allow fitment of a dizzy. Fit a swirl pot to the fuel tank and an
efi fuel pump and "Bob's your uncle".
I wouldn't fit carbs to an efi engine, a lot of the power increase comes
from the efi system, mainly the inlet manifold design. If you must go carb
for simplicity, then fit a Webber 500.
Use a rangie classic / Disco mk 1 ZF 4 speed auto and transfer box and mod
the props to fit.

Badger.


 

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Woods wrote:
>
>> I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!)

P38 has prop shafts on wrong side of the vehicle, so the p38 transfer box is
no good. Don't know if you can fit an LT230 onto a P38 box, but probably
not.

>
> If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS
>
>> Hmm. they arn't much more expensive than the normal kits :). I'll have
>> to pop into the gas place here and ask them.
>
> I don't think that this is going to be particularly cheap or easy. For
> a start if you take the engine as it is and drop it in you may find
> that your have problems if you want to LPG it leading to you needing a
> new ECU chip (it'll drop into limp home mode as the computer will
> recognise that it has lost control of the engine).

Not if you fit a modern master/slave SGI system, the computer then knows no
difference as it thinks you are still on petrol and has direct control over
fuelling adjustment for correct lambda.

> I don't know how
> integrated the gems ECU is with the rest of the vehicle, but you are
> going to want to take EVERYTHING you can out of the donor, Lee_D
> mentions keeping manifolds, well - you're going to want to amend your
> downpipes at least then to get lambda sensors in, there will be a LOT
> of work in getting the thing going properly. And it is always the
> little things that eat up money.

I think you'd need a substantial part of the harness and the Body Computer
as well, to overcome any immobilisation issues within the ecu.

>
> I believe that Martyn used the front of an old V8 to get a dizzy on and
> had SU carbs but he can no doubt tell you how got his v8 running, I may
> well be wrong there.
>
> If it were my vehicle then I'd definately fit the 4.0 but junk the gems
> parts and use an aftermarket controller to control fuel and spark which
> will get around most of the above issues nicely and if you're good at
> selling on eBay you might even break even with cost.

Valid point, but I wouldn't go carbs, you'll lose a lot of mid-range and
top-end due to the vastly inferior inlet manifold design, best to fit an
early front cover, 3.9 camshaft, 3.9 dizzy, 3.9 hotwire efi system and
injection-suitable fuel pump - or a webber 500 and edelbrock manifold.

Badger.


 
Tom Woods <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> Hmm. they arn't much more expensive than the normal kits :). I'll have
> to pop into the gas place here and ask them.

The one on our ES is a nice setup. Bigas. I think Car-Gas supply a similar
system. Both are in effect sequential injection systems which tap in to the
loom and fire up LPG injectors and shut down the petrol ones. Little more
clever than that but saves all this worry about flaps and stuff.

You would need to get some milage to justify both the engine and box and
also LPG set up thou. Personally I'd do the rest first then consider engines
and boxes further down the line. At least you only have bite size chunks to
deal with then.

Lee

--
www.lrproject.com



 
On or around Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:40:44 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Tom Woods wrote:
>>
>>> I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!)
>
>P38 has prop shafts on wrong side of the vehicle, so the p38 transfer box is
>no good. Don't know if you can fit an LT230 onto a P38 box, but probably
>not.

don't they use the ZF4HP24 or something? if so, I'd expect an earlier Tbox
from a 4-speed auto to fit. Or are they not the 4-speed any more?

>> If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS

eeek.

that's way beyond my level of expertise.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:40:44 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Sorry if this is repeating what has already been said by others, but here's
>my tuppenceworth.

Thanks everybody.

So i'm looking at for starters -

5 speed box wont fit, and i'd be better off getting a 4 speed auto. I
can cope with this - I'm sure i can ebay the 5 and get a 4....

Remove the bits of the 4.0 engine that make it need the complicated
ECU and fit a dissy. I'm happy with this.
Sounds like i should break even or so on ebay.
Is any of my 3.5 suitable? or do i need the 3.9 bits?

>4.0 V8 is either gems (>99) or Motronic (99>) management, either of which
>would be exceedingly complex to wire in, due to immobilisation issues.
>(Motronic needs to have a substantial part of the vehicle harness and the
>BCU computer or it won't work, Gems may be the same)
>Use the 4.0 engine, fit a 3.9 hotwire efi system complete, including inlet
>manifold (just don't connect the knock, crank and cam sensors) and harness.
>Fit an early-type timing cover (you need to replace the cam and followers as
>well) to allow fitment of a dizzy. Fit a swirl pot to the fuel tank and an
>efi fuel pump and "Bob's your uncle".

What does a swirl pot do?

>I wouldn't fit carbs to an efi engine, a lot of the power increase comes
>from the efi system, mainly the inlet manifold design. If you must go carb
>for simplicity, then fit a Webber 500.

Right. I'm definately going to LPG the truck as i plan to do some
miles over the summer.
My point was that is it worth sticking with the injection bits if im
only using gas. How much more does a gas kit that uses seperate
injectors cost?

>Use a rangie classic / Disco mk 1 ZF 4 speed auto and transfer box and mod
>the props to fit.

Got that. Loads on ebay!
>
>Badger.
>

 
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:33:57 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>> If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS
>
>eeek.
>
>that's way beyond my level of expertise.

I've only just got my head around early 80's bosch K-jet systems! :)
 
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:40:44 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> If it were my vehicle then I'd definately fit the 4.0 but junk the gems
>> parts and use an aftermarket controller to control fuel and spark which
>> will get around most of the above issues nicely and if you're good at
>> selling on eBay you might even break even with cost.
>
>Valid point, but I wouldn't go carbs, you'll lose a lot of mid-range and
>top-end due to the vastly inferior inlet manifold design, best to fit an
>early front cover, 3.9 camshaft, 3.9 dizzy, 3.9 hotwire efi system and
>injection-suitable fuel pump - or a webber 500 and edelbrock manifold.

the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :(


Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control
systems?
 
Tom Woods <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :(
>
>
> Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control
> systems?

Use carbs. Once it's running you're only using them as a throttle anyway.

The 4.0 will be an improvement over the 3.5 despite the lower grunt the
carbs/inlet manifold will give you.

After all it's not going to be a hill racer.

You will also need a very big auto oil cooler, next time you see grumble
take a peek behind the grill.

Lee
--
www.lrproject.com



 
Tom Woods wrote:

> the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :(

Add in to that your new camshaft + followers, new gaskets, s/h front
end, probably new water pump to fit, s/h alternator(?) new pulleys(?),
s/h dizzy, new leads, new rotor arm, new dizzy cap, new coil, (and if
you want efi fuel: s/h 3.9 wiring loom, s/h 3.9 ecu, intertia cut off
switch) and I think you'll see that this could get expensive unless you
happen to have the bits lying around (I have some of them...:)

> Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control
> systems?

www.megasquirt.info if you can wield a soldering iron and read a
circuit diagram. Keep your engine in one piece, keep the power, keep
the economy of efi. You'd need a megasquirt 1 squirt'n'spark or a
megasquirt 2 setup to control fuel and ignition. Could work with lpg
too. Kits start at just under two hundred dollars, I'd expect you
could do the whole thing well for round about five hundred (you'd need
to find out how the trigger sensing is done on your engine to find out
what extra bits you'd need). If you could find someone near by to help
you who has already done a V8 then they could go through it with you.
I don't doubt in the slightest that it would be the cheapest in the
long run, especially at the rate 101s go through juice! But I would
recommend you seeing if you could find someone local to help you.

Regards

William MacLeod

 
On 20 Feb 2006 17:13:08 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tom Woods wrote:
>
>> the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :(
>
>Add in to that your new camshaft + followers, new gaskets, s/h front
>end, probably new water pump to fit, s/h alternator(?) new pulleys(?),
>s/h dizzy, new leads, new rotor arm, new dizzy cap, new coil, (and if
>you want efi fuel: s/h 3.9 wiring loom, s/h 3.9 ecu, intertia cut off
>switch) and I think you'll see that this could get expensive unless you
>happen to have the bits lying around (I have some of them...:)

Are any of the bits off my 3.5 suitable? I know i can make my
alternator fit at the least! ;)

I'm starting to get put off now :( - though i may have the 4.0 and box
anyhow and see how hard it could be..

>> Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control
>> systems?
>
>www.megasquirt.info if you can wield a soldering iron and read a
>circuit diagram. Keep your engine in one piece, keep the power, keep
>the economy of efi. You'd need a megasquirt 1 squirt'n'spark or a
>megasquirt 2 setup to control fuel and ignition. Could work with lpg
>too. Kits start at just under two hundred dollars, I'd expect you
>could do the whole thing well for round about five hundred (you'd need
>to find out how the trigger sensing is done on your engine to find out
>what extra bits you'd need). If you could find someone near by to help
>you who has already done a V8 then they could go through it with you.
>I don't doubt in the slightest that it would be the cheapest in the
>long run, especially at the rate 101s go through juice! But I would
>recommend you seeing if you could find someone local to help you.

I've looked at megasquirt before. Never read anything about how well
it does with LPG. I've got mates who solder stuff for living's and am
not adverse to attempting to butcher (that what said mate described my
self playstation mod chip soldering job as!) stuff myself if needs
must!

 
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:13:41 -0000, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Use carbs. Once it's running you're only using them as a throttle anyway.

My exact thinking!. MY carb on the car is knackered but does a great
job for LPG!

>The 4.0 will be an improvement over the 3.5 despite the lower grunt the
>carbs/inlet manifold will give you.
>
>After all it's not going to be a hill racer.

How much extra power in terms of numbers would i gain going from a
carbed 101 3.5 to a 4.0 bottom end possibly with carbs?

>You will also need a very big auto oil cooler, next time you see grumble
>take a peek behind the grill.

I presume one of them will be stuck on the RaRo now anyhow? (breaking
the whole thing)

 
"Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>You will also need a very big auto oil cooler, next time you see grumble
>>take a peek behind the grill.
>
> I presume one of them will be stuck on the RaRo now anyhow? (breaking
> the whole thing)

Not seen a P38 one but be prepared to think bigger.

Lee D


 
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