P38 Diesel Timing

myfirstl322 said:

Broth, my fave, wi a side o popcorn!

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Your Welsh?

No, I only know of normal length railway station signs.
I have a theory that the Welsh sign writing guild were complicit in the naming of some towns there.

Don't know what you mean....

Managed to get the timing cover out while Cyl head & sump in place WITH crank locked at TDC
The coloured links are not aligning with timing marks , may be the chain walked over the sprocket.?
But within crank sprocket mark & the inj pump sprocket mark (no.6, tippexed), there are 12 links.
see the photoes. sorry for the picture quality. Pleased to have your comments. Note: inj pump still at the upper most postion towards the engine.

kapilamuni said:

Managed to get the timing cover out while Cyl head & sump in place WITH crank locked at TDC
The coloured links are not aligning with timing marks , may be the chain walked over the sprocket.?
But within crank sprocket mark & the inj pump sprocket mark (no.6, tippexed), there are 12 links.
see the photoes. sorry for the picture quality. Pleased to have your comments. Note: inj pump still at the upper most postion towards the engine.
View attachment 140272 View attachment 140274

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Now check that the Woodruff key is in place. How the hell you can have got the bright links that far out totally defeats me.

Yes, the woodruff key is there. No idea about the 'bright links' not aligning.
Yet the timing should be okay as within timing marks it got the 12 links.
Now, what else to do?

kapilamuni said:

Yes, the woodruff key is there. No idea about the 'bright links' not aligning.
Yet the timing should be okay as within timing marks it got the 12 links.
Now, what else to do?

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Do you have any matches?

Not yet dear.
This is my 10th year with this car. Not going to give up, that easily.

Kapil, didn't you change the fuel pump?
Maybe the issue is in that! Can't remember if you had changed it...

So the crankshaft is definitely locked at TDC.

Where's the camshaft?

On top of the engine!

Mark Piercy said:

On top of the engine!

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There's always f*ckin one, isn't there?!

I meant what position is it in?

Looking at his FIP sprocket. Is that a 4 at about half-past 5? So that mark at about 4 o'clock might be a 6? Yet the bright link is lined up with a mark up at 1 o'clock? I have to admit I am so out of my depth I think even a periscope wouldn't show me much!

He seems to have 2 threads open on this!

Right. IF the engine is locked at TDC and the pump shaft to sprocket Woodruff key is in place. There are twelve links between the crank mark and the number six mark on the pump sprocket. So that is correct even though not using the bright links baffles me. We know he has timed the cam wrong that can be sorted. Now IF he cannot get .95 lift on cam and pump is on maximum deflection towards engine without achieving this, there can only really be two things wrong. Either the cross drive in the pump is very worn which i doubt or wait for it and i have mentioned it often before. When he did the pressure head seal the thrust spacer has fallen out. There cannot be any other reason.

Mark Piercy said:

Kapil, didn't you change the fuel pump?
Maybe the issue is in that! Can't remember if you had changed it...

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If you mean the 'injection pump', no.
Just commented on the other thread to keep the others informed on the results.
Wammers, if the thrust washer had dropped, the pump would have destroyed by now as the internals hitting the plunger. (from VW AUDI forums)

kapilamuni said:

If you mean the 'injection pump', no.
Just commented on the other thread to keep the others informed on the results.
Wammers, if the thrust washer had dropped, the pump would have destroyed by now as the internals hitting the plunger. (from VW AUDI forums)

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Ok carry on then. If the crank is locked at TDC number one firing. And there are twelve raised links between the crank sprocket mark and the number 6 mark on the pump sprocket. And the Woodruff key on the pump shaft is engaged in the slot in the pump sprocket. And you cannot obtain .95 mm lift on cam to set static. It has to be a problem with the injection pump. IT CANNOT BE ANYTHING ELSE.

Agreed, it got to be the inj pump., but the plunger thrust washer NO.
BTW, without the pump shaft key engaged, it will never start as there will be no injection.

kapilamuni said:

Agreed, it got to be the inj pump., but the plunger thrust washer NO.
BTW, without the pump shaft key engaged, it will never start as there will be no injection.

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It really is time you started listening. I know what i am talking about you don't, please don't lecture me on what is possible and what is not. It is quite possible to tighten the pump sprocket onto the tapered pump shaft without the Woodruff key in place and for the shaft to slip round inside the sprocket and produce what you have. Now be a good lad and follow these instructions, this is the very last time i will say this. Then i wash my hands of you. Ensure engine is locked at TDC number one firing. (Engine CANNOT be moved in either direction). Set one bright link on mark on crank sprocket, other bright link on number six mark on pump sprocket. With injection pump set at next cylinder to fire number one. With pump slightly loose on it's fixings for adjustment. Engage sprocket on pump ensuring Woodruff key is engaged. Torque up nut. Next, time camshaft with no gap to location tool. Torque up bolt. Next secure DTI into pump and set 2 mm on dial gauge. Zero gauge. With pump nuts nipped so pump can just be tapped around. Tap pump TOWARDS engine until a reading of .95 mm is obtained and nip pump nuts up. You can now remove locking pin and follow RAVE instructions to double check static timing. If after all that is done and you still cannot get .95 lift on cam the pump has an internal problem more than likely as outlined earlier.

wammers said:

It really is time you started listening. I know what i am talking about you don't, please don't lecture me on what is possible and what is not. It is quite possible to tighten the pump sprocket onto the tapered pump shaft without the Woodruff key in place and for the shaft to slip round inside the sprocket and produce what you have. ............................

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In that case, it's the pump sprocket to slip around the shaft as the engine force is on the sprocket via chain. The moment that happens, the injection timing will be out as the sprocket's position has moved away from the pump shaft. Also, once it starts slipping no force can hold it. If the key is not there it will continue to slip., Certainly there will be no position like slipping & gripping on & off. Even that's so, initial slip will put the injection timing out and since shaft is not rotating there is no fuel injection. The engine stops & no amount of cranking will get it started. In my case, the engine stopped suddenly (when idling in gear ) & randomly, but starts on the button when it cools down
Also, the position of coloured links on the chain are not important as far as there are 12 raised links in between crank & pump sprockets timing marks (with crank locked at TDC). The cloured links are to assist in the initial setting of timing /chains without much hassle.

kapilamuni said:

In that case, it's the pump sprocket to slip around the shaft as the engine force is on the sprocket via chain. The moment that happens, the injection timing will be out as the sprocket's position has moved away from the pump shaft. Also, once it starts slipping no force can hold it. If the key is not there it will continue to slip., Certainly there will be no position like slipping & gripping on & off. Even that's so, initial slip will put the injection timing out and since shaft is not rotating there is no fuel injection. The engine stops & no amount of cranking will get it started. In my case, the engine stopped suddenly (when idling in gear ) & randomly, but starts on the button when it cools down
Also, the position of coloured links on the chain are not important as far as there are 12 raised links in between crank & pump sprockets timing marks (with crank locked at TDC). The cloured links are to assist in the initial setting of timing /chains without much hassle.

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You really are hard work. I told you don't lecture me, it is possible for the sprocket to slip and anchor in the new position and turn the injection pump. Because the rotation auto tightens the nut and jambs the sprocket on the taper. Now either do as instructed or not it is up to you, i am running out of patient with you.

If it was me a would just start from scratch and run through every bit in order methodically, only way to sort it.