Freelander 1 New-to-me FL1 TD4 2006 - smoke on startup and doesn't get up to temp

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ChuggyFreelander said:
Ah. I've discovered that "leak off" and "leak back" tests are different things... I did ask for a leak back test but clearly this was lost in translation because they've performed a "leak off' test according to the invoice. I guess this would explain the differing interpretations of the results. Urgh...😣
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1=25ml Only just outside acceptable
2=12.5ml inside acceptable.
3=20ml acceptable
4=35ml outside acceptable so this is the suspect.
If the test was done properly over a 2min period anything within the 20ml is acceptable

Maybe take Freddie17 up on his kind offer.
 
Arctic2 said:
1=25ml Only just outside acceptable
2=12.5ml inside acceptable.
3=20ml acceptable
4=35ml outside acceptable so this is the suspect.
If the test was done properly over a 2min period anything within the 20ml is acceptable

Maybe take Freddie17 up on his kind offer.
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Sorry @Arctic2 - forgive my ignorance- so does it matter whether a “leak off” or “leak back” test was done? Just concerned as to whether this affects the interpretation of the results.

Clearly either way injector 4 is (the most) dodgy given the difference, but just wondering.

Google tells me they test slightly different things but can’t make out whether the terms are just used interchangeably 🙈


I think I perhaps should - so pleased I found this forum! 🙂
 
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pwood999 said:
And what is the
IMG_1765.jpeg
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difference ?
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That’s what I found which concerned me. Just thinking re the amounts coming into the bottles, perhaps parameters are different between the 2 tests
 
pwood999 said:
And what is the difference ?
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Personally i would say they are one and the same, you get the same or come to the same conclusion, clearly No 4 injector needs to be changed then go from there, do another leak back test or get it on the code reader and check the injectors that way.

Freddie17 as made an offer.
 
Arctic2 said:
Personally i would say they are one and the same, you get the same or come to the same conclusion, clearly No 4 injector needs to be changed then go from there, do another leak back test or get it on the code reader and check the injectors that way.

Freddie17 as made an offer.
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Ok, thank you 🙏

He has, very kindly. I’ll see how the MOT goes - if it drastically fails then I won’t be pursuing it I don’t think as just doesn’t make financial sense really. If we’re good then I shall take him up on it 👌
 
Update... MOT didn't go well. In fact, garage called me after starting it up and turning it straight off again as after sitting for hours, it was doing the usual white smoke and misfiring on starting. I explained that it would stop smoking after a couple of mins and run better once up to temp, but they said this would still be an emissions fail :/ I perhaps should've run it a bit harder before the MOT (although it had been up to temp for a while when I got there) but didn't get time before my lift arrived. Perhaps wouldn't have made any difference since it wasn't tested until mid afternoon, so more time for drippy injector(s) to do their thing...

I asked them to do a pre-MOT assessment and it will also fail on the handbrake -12% since the adjustment didn't help.

It was pretty difficult to start (coughing/dying) when I picked it up in the evening, with lots of smoke - I think it didn't like being turned on and off very quickly earlier in the day. Seems I will need to bite the bullet and address the smoke/misfire situation sooner than expected.

@Freddie17 is very kindly coming tomorrow night to do some diagnostics :)
 
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ChuggyFreelander said:
Update... MOT didn't go well. In fact, garage called me after starting it up and turning it straight off again as after sitting for hours, it was doing the usual white smoke and misfiring on starting. I explained that it would stop smoking after a couple of mins and run better once up to temp, but they said this would still be an emissions fail :/ I perhaps should've run it a bit harder before the MOT (although it had been up to temp for a while when I got there) but didn't get time before my lift arrived. Perhaps wouldn't have made any difference since it wasn't tested until mid afternoon, so more time for drippy injector(s) to do their thing...

I asked them to do a pre-MOT assessment and it will also fail on the handbrake -12% since the adjustment didn't help.

It was pretty difficult to start (coughing/dying) when I picked it up in the evening, with lots of smoke - I think it didn't like being turned on and off very quickly earlier in the day. Seems I will need to bite the bullet and address the smoke/misfire situation sooner than expected.

@Freddie17 is very kindly coming tomorrow night to do some diagnostics :)
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Hopefully Freddie will report back to us so we know what is going on, looks like the injector needs to be changed out, make sure EGR, manifold & MAP sensor is clean, drop some injector cleaner into the tank, it's always good to book your MOT time then give it a good 10 mile run thrashing like you have stole it, an Italian tune up, maybe turn up about 10 minutes before the MOT time, sit in the car with it running until 5 minutes before it goes into the bay.

Glow plugs may also help, make sure the PCV filter, and air filter are new, i always do a service the week before the MOT which includes oil, oil filter, air filter, PCV filter, clean manifold EGR and MAP sensor.
 
Arctic2 said:
Hopefully Freddie will report back to us so we know what is going on, looks like the injector needs to be changed out, make sure EGR, manifold & MAP sensor is clean, drop some injector cleaner into the tank, it's always good to book your MOT time then give it a good 10 mile run thrashing like you have stole it, an Italian tune up, maybe turn up about 10 minutes before the MOT time, sit in the car with it running until 5 minutes before it goes into the bay.

Glow plugs may also help, make sure the PCV filter, and air filter are new, i always do a service the week before the MOT which includes oil, oil filter, air filter, PCV filter, clean manifold EGR and MAP sensor.
Click to expand...

A lot of the 'go-to' stuff has been done by the OP already, including PCV and MAP, but we'll get some checks and read-outs and report findings.
The intake manifold and EGR has been cleaned also - @Arctic2 do you still have any cleaned + gutted EGR units available?
The injector balancing figures may give a steer and back up the leak back test already done.
I have a spare fuel filter for the F1, so that can go on it, and we can check the LP/HP flows.
Will also check the boost hoses for leaks.

I'm all for the Italian tune-up and straight into the test approach myself ;)
 
Freddie17 said:
A lot of the 'go-to' stuff has been done by the OP already, including PCV and MAP, but we'll get some checks and read-outs and report findings.
The intake manifold and EGR has been cleaned also - @Arctic2 do you still have any cleaned + gutted EGR units available?
The injector balancing figures may give a steer and back up the leak back test already done.
I have a spare fuel filter for the F1, so that can go on it, and we can check the LP/HP flows.
Will also check the boost hoses for leaks.

I'm all for the Italian tune-up and straight into the test approach myself ;)
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I am waiting on the return of two EGR and i have two in the shed that need doing, when i get time to sort them out which would be this weekend sometime.
 
Arctic2 said:
Hopefully Freddie will report back to us so we know what is going on, looks like the injector needs to be changed out, make sure EGR, manifold & MAP sensor is clean, drop some injector cleaner into the tank, it's always good to book your MOT time then give it a good 10 mile run thrashing like you have stole it, an Italian tune up, maybe turn up about 10 minutes before the MOT time, sit in the car with it running until 5 minutes before it goes into the bay.

Glow plugs may also help, make sure the PCV filter, and air filter are new, i always do a service the week before the MOT which includes oil, oil filter, air filter, PCV filter, clean manifold EGR and MAP sensor.
Click to expand...
thanks @Arctic2. Possibly I was a bit complacent about the MOT… 🙈😂

We’ll report back with results…
 
Having gone through similar recently, I suspect we have the same issue with injectors. In my case the low temp was solved with a new thermostat - PITA but done.

Our 2004 FL1 was smokey all the time, so did all the following:
  • Checked & cleaned all sensors.
  • Tested & checked fuel rail sensor wiring was good.
  • New crankcase breather
  • EGR Bypass
  • Intercooler & all turbo hoses cleaned out (off the car)
  • Leak Back / Off test (unbalanced)
  • Cleaned injector tips inside & out
  • Leak Back / Off test (all even now)
  • Injection pump & regulator seals replaced.
So now the engine smokes a bit on startup & idles lumpy for a minute or so. It's smooth with no smoke at idle after that & when driving gently. It still smokes on hard acceleration, but none when sitting at 2000rpm for the smoke check !!

My conclusion is the injectors are tired & have either worn springs or needles inside, so the engine is over-fueling even though the sensors all read correctly.

Someone also suggested the smoke at startup could be residual fuel in the injectors & cylinders, so once that's burnt it idles nicely.

It's now acting as my Son's mobile shed, but will be sold soon. We cannot justfiy £300-400 on injectors based on a guess, and on a car probably only worth £1000 or less.
 
pwood999 said:
Having gone through similar recently, I suspect we have the same issue with injectors. In my case the low temp was solved with a new thermostat - PITA but done.

Our 2004 FL1 was smokey all the time, so did all the following:
  • Checked & cleaned all sensors.
  • Tested & checked fuel rail sensor wiring was good.
  • New crankcase breather
  • EGR Bypass
  • Intercooler & all turbo hoses cleaned out (off the car)
  • Leak Back / Off test (unbalanced)
  • Cleaned injector tips inside & out
  • Leak Back / Off test (all even now)
  • Injection pump & regulator seals replaced.
So now the engine smokes a bit on startup & idles lumpy for a minute or so. It's smooth with no smoke at idle after that & when driving gently. It still smokes on hard acceleration, but none when sitting at 2000rpm for the smoke check !!

My conclusion is the injectors are tired & have either worn springs or needles inside, so the engine is over-fueling even though the sensors all read correctly.

Someone also suggested the smoke at startup could be residual fuel in the injectors & cylinders, so once that's burnt it idles nicely.

It's now acting as my Son's mobile shed, but will be sold soon. We cannot justfiy £300-400 on injectors based on a guess, and on a car probably only worth £1000 or less.
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Did you back-probe the fuel rail sensor to test it?
 
@Freddie17 has kindly been round - here are some screenshots .Thoughts appreciated... injectors, as expected, plus MAP sensor. Have included 2 photos of injector readout.
P1613 MAP Control code reappeared after Freddie cleared the codes that first came up which seemed to relate to the sensors I'd been unplugging and plugging back in when doing the clean out.

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Ok chaps, update on @ChuggyFreelander ’s car…

Main issues for MOT are excessive smoking and handbrake. My advice was to sort the smoking first, if dealt with, then replace the rear brakes.

Seems to be an injector issue going on as the balancing range is between -5.4 through to 6.2, which seems too much to me.
I think there might also be some oil burning thought it, as the smoke is blueish and has a nasty smell, even once up to temp… could a PCV issue be causing this. Thoughts?

A few codes present but that was down to things being removed for cleaning etc. Once rest, the only live code is the P1613 MAP.

Couldn’t see any visible splits in the boost hoses, but closer inspection needed for that.

Fuel pressures look ok on the low and high side.

It’s a very tidy F1, and worthy of a fix for sure!
 
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Edit:
I fitted a new PCV/crankcase breather kit, the one below. The kit I changed out had an oily filter, but I wouldn't say loads of oily residue around the casing. It was a bit oily, for sure.
And below that is the manifold, intake and EGR pre-cleaning.
PCV kit.JPG
manifold etc.jpg
 
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