New injectors - what a difference

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Graham Carter

Guest
I posted a thread about problems with my 300Tdi Disco, when I had to have
the injector pump rebuilt. At the time, there seemd to be a lack of
performance. Well I've just fitted new injectors, and wow, what a
difference.

Pulled out of my drive, accelerated and was startled by the sudden spurt of
power as the turbo kicked in! It hasn't felt like that since new. At idle,
it used to do a good impresssion of a tractor, with a typical diesel
clatter, but now she purrs.

What I suspect is that when my injector pump failed, some of the bits of
metal had worked their way into the injectors, and were restricting the
pressure. Plus they've been in the vehicle for over 180000km, so were
probably getting long in the tooth anyway.

Merry Christmas everyone, and may 2006 bring many hours of "landie-fun"!

Cheers!
Graham Carter
--
Carter Computer Services (Pvt) Ltd
P.O. Box A1619
Avondale
Harare
Zimbabwe
Tel: +263 4 300082
Cell: +263 91 329310
Fax: +263 918 329310
email:gcarter(at)mweb(dot)co(dot)zw



 
Graham Carter wrote:
> I posted a thread about problems with my 300Tdi Disco, when I had to have
> the injector pump rebuilt. At the time, there seemd to be a lack of
> performance. Well I've just fitted new injectors, and wow, what a
> difference.
>
> Pulled out of my drive, accelerated and was startled by the sudden spurt of
> power as the turbo kicked in! It hasn't felt like that since new. At idle,
> it used to do a good impresssion of a tractor, with a typical diesel
> clatter, but now she purrs.
>
> What I suspect is that when my injector pump failed, some of the bits of
> metal had worked their way into the injectors, and were restricting the
> pressure. Plus they've been in the vehicle for over 180000km, so were
> probably getting long in the tooth anyway.

You should find that the new injectors settle down and beome even better
afetr a few thousand km. You'll also probably notice a bit of an
improvement in fuel economy.

I'd suggest not leaving your injectors quite so long next time - around
100,000km seems to be their lifespan before the nozzles are worn enough
to affect the spray pattern.


--
EMB
 
....and EMB spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...

> I'd suggest not leaving your injectors quite so long next time -
> around 100,000km seems to be their lifespan before the nozzles are
> worn enough to affect the spray pattern.

I've always reckoned that injectors are one of those fix-it-if-it-breaks
type of item. And consequently have never felt the need to do so. My
300Tdi has done 92,000 miles. Do you reckon changing them would be a good
idea?

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
Richard Brookman wrote:
> ...and EMB spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...
>
>> I'd suggest not leaving your injectors quite so long next time -
>> around 100,000km seems to be their lifespan before the nozzles are
>> worn enough to affect the spray pattern.
>
> I've always reckoned that injectors are one of those fix-it-if-it-breaks
> type of item. And consequently have never felt the need to do so. My
> 300Tdi has done 92,000 miles. Do you reckon changing them would be a good
> idea?
>
Get them tested. Its cheaper than swapping them on spec.

Steve
 
Richard Brookman wrote:
> ...and EMB spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...
>
>> I'd suggest not leaving your injectors quite so long next time -
>> around 100,000km seems to be their lifespan before the nozzles are
>> worn enough to affect the spray pattern.
>
> I've always reckoned that injectors are one of those
> fix-it-if-it-breaks type of item. And consequently have never felt
> the need to do so. My 300Tdi has done 92,000 miles. Do you reckon
> changing them would be a good idea?

Not unless they produce markedly more black smoke than they once did, or the
power is down and fuel consumption up, or it is rough running. I reckon
around 150,000 miles is reasonable before changing with the usual dollop of
luck combined with reasonable filter maintenance. In fact my hard used 110
naturally aspirated has done over 8000 hours on one set. 10,000 hours is
quite normal on commercial vehicles. At 20mph average that is 200,000 miles

Huw


 
On or around Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:06:07 +0000, Steve
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Richard Brookman wrote:
>> ...and EMB spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...
>>
>>> I'd suggest not leaving your injectors quite so long next time -
>>> around 100,000km seems to be their lifespan before the nozzles are
>>> worn enough to affect the spray pattern.
>>
>> I've always reckoned that injectors are one of those fix-it-if-it-breaks
>> type of item. And consequently have never felt the need to do so. My
>> 300Tdi has done 92,000 miles. Do you reckon changing them would be a good
>> idea?
>>
>Get them tested. Its cheaper than swapping them on spec.

find the right place, and they'll rebuild/exchange 'em for you.

I've found South West Electro-Diesel in Carmarthen to be a bunch who know
what they're doing.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to
a great lie than to a small one" Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
from Mein Kampf, Ch 10
 
Richard Brookman wrote:
>
> I've always reckoned that injectors are one of those fix-it-if-it-breaks
> type of item. And consequently have never felt the need to do so. My
> 300Tdi has done 92,000 miles. Do you reckon changing them would be a good
> idea?
>
As others have suggested - get them tested. When I had my workshop I
test about 100 sets a year, and the ones that had been in service for
much over about 80,000km were generally showing a less than optimal
spray pattern. That said, on vehicles that were mostly doing high-speed
motorway running I saw some sets that were lasting about twice that.

--
EMB
 
Huw wrote:
>
> Not unless they produce markedly more black smoke than they once did, or the
> power is down and fuel consumption up, or it is rough running. I reckon
> around 150,000 miles is reasonable before changing with the usual dollop of
> luck combined with reasonable filter maintenance. In fact my hard used 110
> naturally aspirated has done over 8000 hours on one set. 10,000 hours is
> quite normal on commercial vehicles. At 20mph average that is 200,000 miles

There seems to be a large difference in lifespan between injectors from
small high-speed diesels and those larger, lower revving engines (for
starters the large engine ones are firing less than half as often in any
given time period). I've got a set of injectors from a Cat truck engine
on the bench at the moment and they are still performing well after
300,000km, but they'll be rebuilt anyway as the engine is having a
freshen (after 1,000,000km).


--
EMB
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> find the right place, and they'll rebuild/exchange 'em for you.
>
> I've found South West Electro-Diesel in Carmarthen to be a bunch who know
> what they're doing.

It's well worth finding a place that rebuilds injectors properly -
anywhere that regrinds nozzles rather than replacing them is just
wasting your time and money as their lifespan will be fairly short.


--
EMB
 
On or around Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:36:00 +1300, EMB <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Richard Brookman wrote:
>>
>> I've always reckoned that injectors are one of those fix-it-if-it-breaks
>> type of item. And consequently have never felt the need to do so. My
>> 300Tdi has done 92,000 miles. Do you reckon changing them would be a good
>> idea?
>>
>As others have suggested - get them tested. When I had my workshop I
>test about 100 sets a year, and the ones that had been in service for
>much over about 80,000km were generally showing a less than optimal
>spray pattern. That said, on vehicles that were mostly doing high-speed
>motorway running I saw some sets that were lasting about twice that.

might be worth a look on the TDi here - currently that's at about 110,000
miles.

That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
In Touch: Get in touch with yourself by touching yourself.
If somebody is watching, stop touching yourself.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)

It's not so much dirt as the actual nozzle wearing that causes the loss
of spray pattern - injector cleaner won't help a set of injectors that
are past their best mechanically.


--
EMB
 
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:47:05 +0000, EMB wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

> Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>> That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)
>
> It's not so much dirt as the actual nozzle wearing that causes the loss
> of spray pattern - injector cleaner won't help a set of injectors that
> are past their best mechanically.
>
>
>

My 2.5TD has recently started missing on one cylinder for about the first 10
sec after it is started from cold. It's done a little under 160k miles, with
(so far as I can tell) no major work on the engine. Is it worth changing the
injectors on this, do you think?

What sort of price is a new set(in the UK), and is it just a case of taking
the old ones off and putting the new ones on?

Nick.

 
In message <[email protected]>
Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:47:05 +0000, EMB wrote
> (in article <[email protected]>):
>
> > Austin Shackles wrote:
> >
> >> That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)
> >
> > It's not so much dirt as the actual nozzle wearing that causes the loss
> > of spray pattern - injector cleaner won't help a set of injectors that
> > are past their best mechanically.
> >
> >
> >
>
> My 2.5TD has recently started missing on one cylinder for about the first 10
> sec after it is started from cold. It's done a little under 160k miles, with
> (so far as I can tell) no major work on the engine. Is it worth changing the
> injectors on this, do you think?
>
> What sort of price is a new set(in the UK), and is it just a case of taking
> the old ones off and putting the new ones on?

Yes! With new washers....

ERR1266 Injector - 2¼D/2.5D/TD from GA432368 - NEW £26.77 inc VAT
564332 Injector - New - 2.5TD - to GA432367 £17.93 inc VAT

>
> Nick.
>

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
In message <[email protected]>
EMB <[email protected]> wrote:

> Austin Shackles wrote:
>
> > That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)
>
> It's not so much dirt as the actual nozzle wearing that causes the loss
> of spray pattern - injector cleaner won't help a set of injectors that
> are past their best mechanically.
>
>

Somewhere authorative (not that I can remember where) I have read
that 200/300Tdi injectors should ideally be replaced at 80,000 miles,
though whether that's srtictly necessary is open to debate.
Getting them checked at that sort of mileage is obvioulsy a good idea,
but watch out for overauling/reconditioning - these injectors are
two stage efforts, and there are very few places that can do both
stages - a local diesel specialst reckons there are only 2 in England,
one of which is theirs (and has never been used for LR injectors
as the operator has never had the training!).

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
Nick Williams wrote:
>
> My 2.5TD has recently started missing on one cylinder for about the first 10
> sec after it is started from cold. It's done a little under 160k miles, with
> (so far as I can tell) no major work on the engine. Is it worth changing the
> injectors on this, do you think?

I'd be looking for a dead glow plug as my first port of call. At that
mileage and not knowing it's history I'd certainly be pulling the
injectors out and getting them checked - removal is as simple as it appears.
>
> What sort of price is a new set(in the UK), and is it just a case of taking
> the old ones off and putting the new ones on?


For a UK price I have no idea, but based on prices here I'd be pretty
upset if rebuilt injectors cost more than about 30 quid a pop. And that
said our very own Mr Beamends has them listed at 26.77 each including
the dreaded VAT.


--
EMB
 
EMB wrote:
> Huw wrote:
>>
>> Not unless they produce markedly more black smoke than they once
>> did, or the power is down and fuel consumption up, or it is rough
>> running. I reckon around 150,000 miles is reasonable before changing
>> with the usual dollop of luck combined with reasonable filter
>> maintenance. In fact my hard used 110 naturally aspirated has done
>> over 8000 hours on one set. 10,000 hours is quite normal on
>> commercial vehicles. At 20mph average that is 200,000 miles
>
> There seems to be a large difference in lifespan between injectors
> from small high-speed diesels and those larger, lower revving engines
> (for starters the large engine ones are firing less than half as
> often in any given time period). I've got a set of injectors from a
> Cat truck engine on the bench at the moment and they are still
> performing well after 300,000km, but they'll be rebuilt anyway as the
> engine is having a freshen (after 1,000,000km).

My friend has a Shogun 2.5 with 160,000 miles on it now on its original
injectors with no problem. It has always smoked a bit when accelerating hard
but the pump was opened out a bit when reasonably new because it towed so
much. Like I said my LR has done over 8000 hours out of over 10,000 on one
set. The only reason they were changed was because I got a bee in my bonnet
that the engine was smoking worse than usual. In fact it was no better with
a new set and in fact is not much worse to this day. The actual mileage is
only 125000 miles even though it has done over 10,000 hours with a lot of
towing. In fact it has just gone to market towing a triple axle box with
three fat cattle and six calves in the back.


Another example is my Land Cruiser 4.2 with the FTE engine. Just on 100,000
of mainly highway miles with less towing on this one but I don't consider
the injectors to be halfway to needing a service yet. It certainly pulls as
new and has no more visible smoke. Mind you, we have had ultra low sulphur
fuel here for a few years which burns much cleaner than the yuckee stuff
they have in Australia IIANM. The LR has spent most of its life on the dirty
stuff though.

Huw


 
EMB wrote:
> Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>> That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)
>
> It's not so much dirt as the actual nozzle wearing that causes the
> loss of spray pattern - injector cleaner won't help a set of
> injectors that are past their best mechanically.

You might think so but I have a Deere 2140 with a Saran 3.9 engine which
sometimes has a phase where white smoke [unburnt fuel] is emitted when
started of a morning. The cure is to pour a litre or two of ATF into the 22
gallon tank. Over the course of two tankfulls of fuel the white smoke at
start just goes away, not to return usually for some 500 hours or one year.
Engine otherwise goes and smokes like new on original injectors at 9500
hours.

My LR naturally aspirated indirect injection engine has a bottle of Forte in
the tank and in a new filter at every yearly smoke test and it gets it
through although these engines have always been borderline or worse for
smoke emission. The effect does not last as long as with the Deere and I
would use ATF if it were not for the red colour that would 'pollute' the
tank.

Huw



 
On or around Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:11:51 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>In message <[email protected]>
> EMB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Austin Shackles wrote:
>>
>> > That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)
>>
>> It's not so much dirt as the actual nozzle wearing that causes the loss
>> of spray pattern - injector cleaner won't help a set of injectors that
>> are past their best mechanically.
>>
>>
>
>Somewhere authorative (not that I can remember where) I have read
>that 200/300Tdi injectors should ideally be replaced at 80,000 miles,
>though whether that's srtictly necessary is open to debate.
>Getting them checked at that sort of mileage is obvioulsy a good idea,
>but watch out for overauling/reconditioning - these injectors are
>two stage efforts, and there are very few places that can do both
>stages - a local diesel specialst reckons there are only 2 in England,
>one of which is theirs (and has never been used for LR injectors
>as the operator has never had the training!).

depends on the relative prices. If they're reasonable money new, I'd be
inclined just to change 'em. ISTR that the main problem with any injectors
is nozzles, though. I assume the springs can get weak inside and/or any
valves get iffy and not seal properly. I'd always assumed that servicing
involved replace the internals if worn, and put a new nozzle on/in...

Although no doubt some places just clean it up and make it look new...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"There are three sorts of people in the world - those who can count,
and those who can't" (Anon)
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:11:51 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>> In message <[email protected]>
>> EMB <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Austin Shackles wrote:
>>>
>>>> That or bung a few bottles of injector cleaner through it :)
>>>
>>> It's not so much dirt as the actual nozzle wearing that causes the
>>> loss of spray pattern - injector cleaner won't help a set of
>>> injectors that are past their best mechanically.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Somewhere authorative (not that I can remember where) I have read
>> that 200/300Tdi injectors should ideally be replaced at 80,000 miles,
>> though whether that's srtictly necessary is open to debate.
>> Getting them checked at that sort of mileage is obvioulsy a good
>> idea, but watch out for overauling/reconditioning - these injectors
>> are
>> two stage efforts, and there are very few places that can do both
>> stages - a local diesel specialst reckons there are only 2 in
>> England, one of which is theirs (and has never been used for LR
>> injectors
>> as the operator has never had the training!).
>
> depends on the relative prices. If they're reasonable money new, I'd
> be inclined just to change 'em. ISTR that the main problem with any
> injectors is nozzles, though. I assume the springs can get weak
> inside and/or any valves get iffy and not seal properly. I'd always
> assumed that servicing involved replace the internals if worn, and
> put a new nozzle on/in...
>
> Although no doubt some places just clean it up and make it look new...

A branch of Lucas Service [as was in Aberystwyth] supplied me with a set of
exchange injectors once which looked nice and shiny in bags with Lucas
Genuine Exchange stickers attached. On examination of the ports on two of
them they were full of red rust, looking as if they had sat at the bottom of
a water barrell for a couple of years. The insides were crusty with rust.
Never dealt with them again for exchange or serviced parts. I've also had
various service exchange injectors and pumps over the years that were not
right in one way or another. Its a bit of a lottery and even the best of
them sometimes gets it wrong.
In general, if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. The secret is in
knowing when something is broken.

Huw


 
Huw wrote:

> Another example is my Land Cruiser 4.2 with the FTE engine. Just on 100,000
> of mainly highway miles with less towing on this one but I don't consider
> the injectors to be halfway to needing a service yet. It certainly pulls as
> new and has no more visible smoke. Mind you, we have had ultra low sulphur
> fuel here for a few years which burns much cleaner than the yuckee stuff
> they have in Australia IIANM. The LR has spent most of its life on the dirty
> stuff though.

That thought occurred to me before I read your post - we've been on
really dirty diesel (like 1500ppm sulphur) here until about 12 months
ago, and the move to ultra low sulphur (<50ppm) is happening at present.
I guess that accounts for a large amount of the difference in injector
lifespan we are seeing - I pulled the injectors from a 4.2 Cruiser last
year and at 140,000km they were absolutely knackered.

--
EMB
 
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