Need to advance the timing but there's no adjustment left!

Hello all
Wow, first post! And to think I've got so close to the end of my Series 3 rebuild without resorting to forums, it's either a triumph or a shame, I've not decided yet.

Anyhow, the mongrel is nearly complete. A galvanised chassis with the best bits salvaged from the scraps of two dead Landys bolted on. I'm pretty pleased with it all in all, pics will follow once it's done.

In the meantime I have a problem with the engine, a five-bearing 2.25 diesel. It's showing all the symptoms of injection timing that's too far retarded. White smoke with the occasional "Chuff" from the exhaust, sadly it's too much smoke to pass the MOT. Oil and water uncontaminated, fuel fresh and valve clearances are spot-on so it seems to be the timing.

So I tried to advance the pump by 1mm at a time by turning it, but it's already at the limit of its adjustment and will go no further. I thought that wear in the timing chain and sprockets might be a cause of this but I've checked them with a DTI and it's absolutely spot-on.

Does anyone know what the most probable cause/fix for this problem might be? I'm suspecting a worn bush or drive gear between the canshaft and injector pump but I'd rather not go pulling things to bits without certainty. I've already wasted a chilly and oily day checking the camshaft timing so I'm still smarting from that.

Any help would be appreciated!

It does indeed sound like the pump needs more advance,

When you re-built it I presume you re-built the engine...setting the timing gears is not an easy job as you prob know on these engines there being no timing marks and having to use the DTI on the valve rocker...cant remember which one as its many years since I last did mine...but a quick look in the book would tell me,

Did you have any probs setting it up...it easy to be a tooth out...this will give the symtoms you have...running out of adjustment,

A real bodge but I have known people to elongate the slots to give more turn,

So what method did you use to time the engine,

By the way I though you where ok posting this in the gen section, I will post this there as well to see if it simulates conversation.

Nick.

i would think you need to start with cam timing , it is set at exhaust peak no1, and a dti is used to find that ,but to set it properly involve marking cam sprocket slightly before and after fully open so you can measure the mid point , its worth checking skew gear and cam teeth for wear ,but if cams correct you should have enough on pump slots to set pump, your best reading the manual on timing, if it isnt right it will smoke

I never did rebuild the engine on this one. It was running when I loaded it onto the trailer in the summer so I let sleeping dogs lie. I've rebuilt a three-bearing diesel in the past and it's so bloody infuriating I thought I'd give it a miss this time!

I'm fairly certain the crank/cam timing is dead on. I've been a tooth / notch out before on a couple of old vehicles so this was my first suspicion. I used the "EP" mark on the flywheel and a dial gauge on no1. cylinder exhaust rocker and they match up perfectly. Finding the EP mark is such a nightmare. I used the screen of an iPhone with the video recorder running on full zoom and the light shining into the inspection hole and only just spotted it. God knows how they used to do it. It must have been an impossible task with the engine in.

Reaming out the holes in the pump body sounds tempting, it'll be a last resort if I can't sort out the pump gear. Any hot tips for getting new parts and doing the job? The LR Parts Catalogue and the Repair Operations Manual shed only a tiny amount of light.

Mmmm with out looking...I thought you use the 13 or 15deg marks on the flywheel...as I say many years since I last did it and I stand to be corrected,

And you need to line your head up dead sqaure or you can be a deg out very easy...I used to use a small mirror.

Nick.

just using a dti to find ep can be 4 degrees out which is why you measure before and after, the cam timing is very critical on a 2.25 more so than other engines, but its worth removing pump and checking gear is fitted correctly and teeth are ok

I'll have another look at the cam timing in that case. The timing cover is still off so it makes sense to be sure. I suspect the engine may have had a hard life; the donor vehicle was a Series 3 but had been transplanted onto a galvanised chassis and the workmanship was just bloody shocking, the kind of thing the worst kind of farmer might lay claim to. My worry was that they will have been just as careless about oil changes, hence the excessive wear to the gears that now mean the pump is out of adjustment.

I've been scouring the books for any kind of information about how power from the camshaft makes its way into the injector pump but it's all a bit vague and inconclusive. Sure I'll get to the bottom of it though.

through the skew gear , it has a master spline for pump so needs fitting timing to cam when fitted, when cams at ep master spline should be 20 degrees from front pump securing stud

Think I'm feeling about ready to give it a crack tomorrow. If the cam timing turns out to be OK I'll get the injector pump off and try and get the skew gear out to inspect it all for wear. Which bit does your gut say is most likely to be the problem?

some people have also been known to file the slots a lil more to get more adjustment.. what bodgers!

Just check that setting...is it EP or 13/14deg for the valve gear timing.......I sure it varies depending on how old the engine is....my manuals are in the loft...but do make sure before you get involved.

Nick.

ep is for cam timing 13-14 degrees is pump timing obviously both valves have to be fully closed on no1 for that or youll be 180 degrees out

Eureka, after careful re-checking of the camshaft timing it appears the chain and sprockets had worn a touch and caused the problem. With the camshaft set at Exhaust Peak (checked and double-checked) the "EP" mark on the flywheel was adrift by a single tooth on the starter ring gear. With 120-odd teeth on the ring gear this equates to about 3 degrees of error at the crank.

I re-set it all, reassembled and test fired the engine and now the timing seems a little too advanced, which is exactly as expected. I'll happily adjust that out by gradually turning the pump a few millimetres away from the bump-stop it's currently stuck against.

Glad it's sorted, a weight off the mind. Thanks all.

Well done...perseverance wins out in the end.

Whizzo said:

Eureka, after careful re-checking of the camshaft timing it appears the chain and sprockets had worn a touch and caused the problem. With the camshaft set at Exhaust Peak (checked and double-checked) the "EP" mark on the flywheel was adrift by a single tooth on the starter ring gear. With 120-odd teeth on the ring gear this equates to about 3 degrees of error at the crank.

I re-set it all, reassembled and test fired the engine and now the timing seems a little too advanced, which is exactly as expected. I'll happily adjust that out by gradually turning the pump a few millimetres away from the bump-stop it's currently stuck against.

Glad it's sorted, a weight off the mind. Thanks all.

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Hi I have a similar problem. My Landy has been advanced right to the end stop on the injector for years but has been running well. Last week I went on a short run - 5 miles when at 35mph I got black smoke from the exhaust and lost some power. As I continued the power dropped further and the car produced white smoke and lost power.

With the engine still idling but really lumpy I tried cracking the injector nuts open one after the other. Cylinders 1 and 2 stopped the engine as soon as the corresponding nuts were loosened. Cylinders 3 and 4 didn't - but they did squirt diesel, so pump is delivering diesel

Since then I have checked all injectors, took the 2 suspects apart and cleaned / tested - both produce good spray patterns. Since then I have checked valve clearances, EP to cylinder 1 fully open with DPI guage - right in the middle of the lobe. 13 degree mark and A on injection pump align exactly as per Haynes manual.

New fuel filter.

If I loosen the injector pump and force it to advance( can eek another 1/4 degree) the engine tone improves. Do I need to replace the chain or can I advance the injector skew gear by 1 tooth?

Sounds to me like you may have a head gasket failure between 3 and 4?

Welcome to lZ by the way, always worth popping over to the introduce yourself section.

Hadn't even contemplated that. That would explain the sudden immediate loss of power and then further deterioration. I will check compression on those 2 cylinders, if the gasket has been compromised, I imagine compression will be low?

lynall said:

Sounds to me like you may have a head gasket failure between 3 and 4?

Welcome to lZ by the way, always worth popping over to the introduce yourself section.

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Lynall, you are a star, I have roughly 25PSI on cylinders 3 and 4 so no wonder they are just chucking unburned fuel into the exhaust. I will take the head off and take a photo for the forum

PeterJS said:

Lynall, you are a star, I have roughly 25PSI on cylinders 3 and 4 so no wonder they are just chucking unburned fuel into the exhaust. I will take the head off and take a photo for the forum

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Fading one mate

PeterJS said:

Hadn't even contemplated that. That would explain the sudden immediate loss of power and then further deterioration. I will check compression on those 2 cylinders, if the gasket has been compromised, I imagine compression will be low?

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They actually blow a piece out between the cylinders, not unheard of, best of all not hard to do either.