Naff Landrovers

This site contains affiliate links for which LandyZone may be compensated if you make a purchase.
F

Fanie

Guest
I was visiting Bell equipment yesterday. These guys make 50ton articulated
dump trucks amongst others, that are badged as either Hitachi, Bell or
Deere. Apparently one went up a close to 1:1 grade with a full load that a
landcruiser couldn't get up. (I know I am sure that a landy would have made
it.)

I went around their test track and let me tell you LR have got a thing or
two to learn about the so called "command driving position." Getting back
into my disco felt like dirving a punto after that beast.

Anyway, I am not sure how I can justify it or what I would use it for, but I
want one.

Regards
Stephen


 
Fanie wrote:

> I was visiting Bell equipment yesterday. These guys make 50ton articulated
> dump trucks amongst others, that are badged as either Hitachi, Bell or
> Deere. Apparently one went up a close to 1:1 grade with a full load that a
> landcruiser couldn't get up. (I know I am sure that a landy would have made
> it.)


101FCs could do 60 degrees (1.7:1) on a dry concrete slope I think - I
don't know if that was loaded or not !

Steve
 

"Fanie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I was visiting Bell equipment yesterday. These guys make 50ton articulated
>dump trucks amongst others, that are badged as either Hitachi, Bell or
>Deere. > Anyway, I am not sure how I can justify it or what I would use it
>for, but I want one.


Easy enough to justify. Get a license to drive it on site and hire to
earthmoving jobs with yourself as driver.

Huw


 
On or around Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:03:58 +0100, Steve Taylor
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Fanie wrote:
>
>> I was visiting Bell equipment yesterday. These guys make 50ton articulated
>> dump trucks amongst others, that are badged as either Hitachi, Bell or
>> Deere. Apparently one went up a close to 1:1 grade with a full load that a
>> landcruiser couldn't get up. (I know I am sure that a landy would have made
>> it.)

>
>101FCs could do 60 degrees (1.7:1) on a dry concrete slope I think - I
>don't know if that was loaded or not !
>
>Steve


'ere, now speaking of 101s - a scheme came to me in a flash of insanity or
inspiration this morning.

Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi. Considering
the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd fit?


OK, 's not quite that simple - you'd need some form of mod to the rear
crankshaft in order to drive though the front end of it, and it has to be
possible that the back end of the rear crank would not be strong enough,
although I rather doubt that.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:04:26 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>'ere, now speaking of 101s - a scheme came to me in a flash of insanity or
>inspiration this morning.
>
>Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi. Considering
>the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd fit?
>


BARMAN

Pint of whatever Austin's drinking please.

;-)

Pleasant weekend all.

David
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

>
> Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi. Considering
> the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd fit?
>
>
> OK, 's not quite that simple - you'd need some form of mod to the rear
> crankshaft in order to drive though the front end of it, and it has to be
> possible that the back end of the rear crank would not be strong enough,
> although I rather doubt that.


Why can't you have these bloody silly ideas where we can find a
tapemeasure....

I reckon the crank connections are the same diameter by the way, so some
manner of high torque flexi coupling would be needed.

Where would we put enough rad/intercooler though.....

So many cool projects, so little time (and money)

Steve
>

 
I dare say, but none of your modern stuff a Scammel explorer would make my
landie seem comfortable in comparison :)


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes



"Fanie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was visiting Bell equipment yesterday. These guys make 50ton articulated
> dump trucks amongst others, that are badged as either Hitachi, Bell or
> Deere. Apparently one went up a close to 1:1 grade with a full load that a
> landcruiser couldn't get up. (I know I am sure that a landy would have

made
> it.)
>
> I went around their test track and let me tell you LR have got a thing or
> two to learn about the so called "command driving position." Getting back
> into my disco felt like dirving a punto after that beast.
>
> Anyway, I am not sure how I can justify it or what I would use it for, but

I
> want one.
>
> Regards
> Stephen
>
>



 

"rads" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:04:26 +0100, Austin Shackles
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>'ere, now speaking of 101s - a scheme came to me in a flash of insanity or
>>inspiration this morning.
>>
>>Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi.
>>Considering
>>the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd fit?
>>

>
> BARMAN
>
> Pint of whatever Austin's drinking please.
>
> ;-)


If only I hadn't packed in smoking 18 months ago, I could have had a smoke
of whatever he fills his baccy tin with, as well as that pint!! :))
Reckon it would work better as 2 V8's bolted together to make a V16,
though! And I bet you it would sound a lot nicer than a couple of diesels,
eh? Oh, and the load bay could be filled with 120ltr lpg tanks to feed it.
Practical...? No! Fun...? Yep!
Badger.


 

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:03:58 +0100, Steve Taylor
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Fanie wrote:
>>
>>> I was visiting Bell equipment yesterday. These guys make 50ton
>>> articulated
>>> dump trucks amongst others, that are badged as either Hitachi, Bell or
>>> Deere. Apparently one went up a close to 1:1 grade with a full load that
>>> a
>>> landcruiser couldn't get up. (I know I am sure that a landy would have
>>> made
>>> it.)

>>
>>101FCs could do 60 degrees (1.7:1) on a dry concrete slope I think - I
>>don't know if that was loaded or not !
>>
>>Steve

>
> 'ere, now speaking of 101s - a scheme came to me in a flash of insanity or
> inspiration this morning.
>
> Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi.
> Considering
> the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd fit?
>
>
> OK, 's not quite that simple - you'd need some form of mod to the rear
> crankshaft in order to drive though the front end of it, and it has to be
> possible that the back end of the rear crank would not be strong enough,
> although I rather doubt that.


Seen this done in tractor pulling circles, with Jag V12's and I6's, no
reason why it couldn't be done with any other engine, I shouldn't imagine,
unless there is an inherent known crank weakness?? The more cylinders each
engine has, the smoother its own power delivery with less torque pulsing,
therefore the easier the stress can be coped with by the rear crank.
Hmmmm... V24, 10.6ltr....
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............................
Badger.


 

"MVP" <mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:06:40 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"rads" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:04:26 +0100, Austin Shackles
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>'ere, now speaking of 101s - a scheme came to me in a flash of insanity

or
> >>>inspiration this morning.
> >>>
> >>>Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi.
> >>>Considering
> >>>the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd

fit?
> >>>
> >>
> >> BARMAN
> >>
> >> Pint of whatever Austin's drinking please.
> >>
> >> ;-)

> >
> >If only I hadn't packed in smoking 18 months ago, I could have had a

smoke
> >of whatever he fills his baccy tin with, as well as that pint!! :))
> > Reckon it would work better as 2 V8's bolted together to make a V16,
> >though! And I bet you it would sound a lot nicer than a couple of

diesels,
> >eh? Oh, and the load bay could be filled with 120ltr lpg tanks to feed

it.
> >Practical...? No! Fun...? Yep!
> >Badger.
> >

>
> Sounds good to me, I'll have 2 please!
>
>
>


personally, i reckon you'd be better off going down the route that the old
mini-mokes did. have a seperate motor powering each pair of wheels. only
problem with that is requiring two transmissions, and you'd probably want
them to be automatics. but worth a think.

Sam.


 
On or around Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:35:29 +0100, steve Taylor
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>>
>> Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi. Considering
>> the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd fit?
>>
>>
>> OK, 's not quite that simple - you'd need some form of mod to the rear
>> crankshaft in order to drive though the front end of it, and it has to be
>> possible that the back end of the rear crank would not be strong enough,
>> although I rather doubt that.

>
>Why can't you have these bloody silly ideas where we can find a
>tapemeasure....
>
>I reckon the crank connections are the same diameter by the way, so some
>manner of high torque flexi coupling would be needed.


the front end of the crank would need a spline or something. I was
originally thinking of a rigid bolting job, which lets you select the firing
order (by varying the angle between the 2 cranks) - I tended to think that
arranging crank1 at 90° to crank2 such that engine2's firing order
interleaves with engine 1 would work - starting with 2 engines that fire
1-3-4-2 you'd and renumbering the aft one to 5,6,7,8 could produce for
example and 8-cylinder order which went 1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6, or indeed various
others - you could have 1-7-3-8-4-6-2-5 by having it 90° out the other way,
say. I doubt it makes much odds.

I spose I should say that the original idea was 2 reliant 850cc engines put
together to make a 1700cc 8...

>
>Where would we put enough rad/intercooler though.....


on the roof? Mind, it'd not need as much cooling as Badger's V16 - the TDi
runs cooler anyway.

On a 101 ambi, you could put radiators above the windscreen, ducted out
through the roof...

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:35:29 +0100, steve Taylor
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >Austin Shackles wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Bolt 2 TDi engines together, you get a 5-litre straight-8 TDi. Considering
> >> the amount of space in front of the rad in the 101, d'you reckon it'd fit?
> >>
> >>
> >> OK, 's not quite that simple - you'd need some form of mod to the rear
> >> crankshaft in order to drive though the front end of it, and it has to be
> >> possible that the back end of the rear crank would not be strong enough,
> >> although I rather doubt that.

> >
> >Why can't you have these bloody silly ideas where we can find a
> >tapemeasure....
> >
> >I reckon the crank connections are the same diameter by the way, so some
> >manner of high torque flexi coupling would be needed.

>
> the front end of the crank would need a spline or something. I was
> originally thinking of a rigid bolting job, which lets you select the firing
> order (by varying the angle between the 2 cranks) - I tended to think that
> arranging crank1 at 90° to crank2 such that engine2's firing order
> interleaves with engine 1 would work - starting with 2 engines that fire
> 1-3-4-2 you'd and renumbering the aft one to 5,6,7,8 could produce for
> example and 8-cylinder order which went 1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6, or indeed various
> others - you could have 1-7-3-8-4-6-2-5 by having it 90° out the other way,
> say. I doubt it makes much odds.
>
> I spose I should say that the original idea was 2 reliant 850cc engines put
> together to make a 1700cc 8...
>
> >
> >Where would we put enough rad/intercooler though.....

>
> on the roof? Mind, it'd not need as much cooling as Badger's V16 - the TDi
> runs cooler anyway.
>
> On a 101 ambi, you could put radiators above the windscreen, ducted out
> through the roof...
>


The major problem would be to get the two engines running the
characteristic, i.e. not fighting each other. I guess (from
railway locomitives) that you'd be lucky to get 150% more
power than a single engine. Somewhere on the web is a discourse
by someone who put 2 (proper) Mini engines together, complete
with the maths on why the power output isn't simply x2

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
>
> The major problem would be to get the two engines running the
> characteristic, i.e. not fighting each other. I guess (from
> railway locomitives) that you'd be lucky to get 150% more
> power than a single engine. Somewhere on the web is a discourse
> by someone who put 2 (proper) Mini engines together, complete
> with the maths on why the power output isn't simply x2
>
>


dont have the address for that site do you?? sounds like it would be an
interesting read.

Sam.


 
beamendsltd wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>


> The major problem would be to get the two engines running the
> characteristic, i.e. not fighting each other. I guess (from
> railway locomitives) that you'd be lucky to get 150% more
> power than a single engine. Somewhere on the web is a discourse
> by someone who put 2 (proper) Mini engines together, complete
> with the maths on why the power output isn't simply x2
>
> Richard


This beginning to sound like serious planning and design stages, we
don't HAVE two 200 TDi engines.

I see your point, but if you drove the cam shafts together too, and
ditch the timing belt on the slave engine......

Steve
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

>
>>Where would we put enough rad/intercooler though.....

>
>
> on the roof? Mind, it'd not need as much cooling as Badger's V16 - the TDi
> runs cooler anyway.
>
> On a 101 ambi, you could put radiators above the windscreen, ducted out
> through the roof...
>


Thats a great idea. Any idea where one can buy radiator core stock
material to roll ones own ? All you buy from Allisport etc. is the
service of someone who can TIG pretty header tanks. The radiator
finstock must be available from someone....A 10 minute Google yesterday
couldn't find the source though.

What happens if you have long intercooler pipes ? Wouldn't that give you
an 'orrible turbo lag, since you have to pressurise the pipes of the
intercooler.

Steve
 
In message <[email protected]>
"Samuel" <[email protected]> wrote:

> >
> > The major problem would be to get the two engines running the
> > characteristic, i.e. not fighting each other. I guess (from
> > railway locomitives) that you'd be lucky to get 150% more
> > power than a single engine. Somewhere on the web is a discourse
> > by someone who put 2 (proper) Mini engines together, complete
> > with the maths on why the power output isn't simply x2
> >
> >

>
> dont have the address for that site do you?? sounds like it would be an
> interesting read.
>
> Sam.
>
>


Somewhere.......... I'll have a hunt around.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
On or around Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:25:11 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>In message <[email protected]>
> Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I spose I should say that the original idea was 2 reliant 850cc engines put
>> together to make a 1700cc 8...
>>

>
>The major problem would be to get the two engines running the
>characteristic, i.e. not fighting each other. I guess (from
>railway locomitives) that you'd be lucky to get 150% more
>power than a single engine. Somewhere on the web is a discourse
>by someone who put 2 (proper) Mini engines together, complete
>with the maths on why the power output isn't simply x2
>
>Richard


I dunno how as they'd fight, as such, if bolted rigidly together. They're
both turning the same way, after all, and every power stroke adds to the
torque. I daresay you don't actually get 2x the power of one, but equally I
don't really see where you lose that much either. I don't, in fact, know
what angles your typical straight-8 crankshaft uses, but it ought to be 90
degrees, in order to get even firing sequences.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> I dunno how as they'd fight, as such, if bolted rigidly together. They're
> both turning the same way, after all, and every power stroke adds to the
> torque. I daresay you don't actually get 2x the power of one, but equally I
> don't really see where you lose that much either. I don't, in fact, know
> what angles your typical straight-8 crankshaft uses, but it ought to be 90
> degrees, in order to get even firing sequences.


...but unless they are phased within a fraction of a degree you'll get
some losses of power - hence my tying the cams together...#

Steve
 
On or around Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:27:19 +0100, steve Taylor
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>> I dunno how as they'd fight, as such, if bolted rigidly together. They're
>> both turning the same way, after all, and every power stroke adds to the
>> torque. I daresay you don't actually get 2x the power of one, but equally I
>> don't really see where you lose that much either. I don't, in fact, know
>> what angles your typical straight-8 crankshaft uses, but it ought to be 90
>> degrees, in order to get even firing sequences.

>
>..but unless they are phased within a fraction of a degree you'll get
>some losses of power - hence my tying the cams together...#


I'd think that a slight phasing problem would be more likely to make it run
slightly less evenly. Even that's not necessarily a problem: some shortish
time ago, the cunning Japanese decided that making multi-cylinder GP bike
engines fire all their cylinders close together was better than firing them
evenly: the Big Bang engine, it became known as. Granted, it didn't make
more power (but didn't, I don't think, make much less), but it did have an
effect on grip - the pulses in the power delivery had an effect similar to
ABS and gave reduced wheelspin, the latter being the limiting factor at the
time in deploying more power.

Going back to basics... every 4-stroke cylinder in an IC engine absorbs
power to a degree - all the time due to friction and more once per cycle due
to compression. The combustion process, allied to a heavy flywheel on a
single, gives more energy than is absorbed and the motor can do useful work.
Adding more cylinders means you can reduce the flywheel mass - I suspect an
8 (or more)-cylinder doesn't technically need a flywheel at all as whichever
cylinder is currently compressing is matched by another on its power stroke,
for an even-firing engine (i.e. one with evenly spaced crank pins). It
might be that the flywheel does other things, like smoothing the power
delivery, and in the case of automotive applications, the flywheel is an
ideal large flat surface to run your clutch on; if you didn't have such a
flywheel, you'd need some other form of clutch.

What I don't see is how adding another set of 4 cylinders, not perfectly
synchronised, is going to lose a lot of power. I can see how having 2
complete systems could go out of sync, such as for example having 2
generator sets driving an electric transmission - one could be doing much
more work than the other; in the same fashion, 2 complete transmissions (a
la 4cv citroen sahara[1]) could be imbalanced - mind, in some conditions,
being able to mix the power levels non-linearly would be an advantage,
especially off-road.

I don't see the problem of balancing power from 2 linked engines as being
that much worse than balancing power from 2 or more carbs. Probably, you'd
set it up on a dyno, and tweak the pump linkages to get maximum output.

[1] twin engine 4x4 version of the 2cv. For them as didn't know
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:25:11 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >In message <[email protected]>
> > Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I spose I should say that the original idea was 2 reliant 850cc engines put
> >> together to make a 1700cc 8...
> >>

> >
> >The major problem would be to get the two engines running the
> >characteristic, i.e. not fighting each other. I guess (from
> >railway locomitives) that you'd be lucky to get 150% more
> >power than a single engine. Somewhere on the web is a discourse
> >by someone who put 2 (proper) Mini engines together, complete
> >with the maths on why the power output isn't simply x2
> >
> >Richard

>
> I dunno how as they'd fight, as such, if bolted rigidly together. They're
> both turning the same way, after all, and every power stroke adds to the
> torque. I daresay you don't actually get 2x the power of one, but equally I
> don't really see where you lose that much either. I don't, in fact, know
> what angles your typical straight-8 crankshaft uses, but it ought to be 90
> degrees, in order to get even firing sequences.


Every engine has its own charecteristics, and unless they are a prefect
match one or the other will be trying to driver the other, acting as
a brake. If you had an arragement to detect this, the slower engine
would have to speed up to match its partner. In doing so it would
likely become the master, and force the other to speed up too, leading
to runaway. The converse would be true if the tactic was to lower the
speed of the master engine. Unless the control was renarkably accurate,
and could react predictively, the engines would end up fighing each
other. An ECU could probably do this, but it would most likely be
far more cost effective (in terms of design, maintainance and fuel
costs) simply to fit a more appropiate engine.

A single engine, but with more cylinders, would not suffer from the
above as it would only have one control system operating on one
crank, i.e. a closed system.

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
Back
Top