mystery v8 and antifreeze

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fett

Well-Known Member
Posts
8,637
Location
South Hampshire
So some of you may know I bought a 72 rrc with what I later found out to be a replacement engine in it.:D

doing a bit of work on it yesterday, notabley changing the rad.

the engine rocker covers are painted black and has a landrover sticker made of plastic on the rocker cover. there are no engine numbers on it but there is an "M" engraved under the exhaust port of number one cylinder.

the engine is so clean, no oil leaks from usual or any places and even the drain keys worked with my fingers. there is some surface sorrosion on the rocker covers and light white powder on the block and surface rust on the manifold like it has been sat for a couple of years which it has.

But both inside and out I would say it has only done about 2k miles., even the antifreez was the red stuff when I drained it, ho hints of blue mixed.

funny thing is it has the pre 76 oil pump/dizzy drive and oil filter, and things undo instead of breaking like normal lol.:confused:

I had bought blue antifreeze for the change expecting the usual blue green for an engine of that age but it was red. I know they do not mix well so I went to halfords as I was now in a rush and forked out £23 for some red/pink/orange stuff which said it was great for all ali engines but also it as sutable for cars after 1998

so 2 questions:

1. how can it be so new yet be so old?

2. do you think that new anfreeze will be ok in there?

bargain if it is as I wont have to change it for 5 years!:rolleyes:
 
hi fett i put a sd1 3.5 in my 2 door .same engine as r/r but high/ comp i think this was just heads but I'm sure some one won't agree.
 
Your car needs antifreeze because water increases in volume about 10% when it freezes, and this expansion can crack and ruin the engine block. To prevent cold-weather damage, ethylene glycol antifreeze is commonly added to the water that flows through the engine. When equal volumes of water and ethylene glycol antifreeze are mixed, the freezing point is lowered from the 0 �C (32 �F) of pure water to about -37 �C (-35 �F). Because outside temperatures rarely fall this low, your engine is protected from cracking.

Although vital for preventing engine damage, ethylene glycol antifreeze poses a serious threat to animals and humans. It is a rapid poison, quickly causing severe kidney and brain damage that often leads to death. It is also a powerful poison; as little as a few teaspoons of ethylene glycol is lethal to humans and wildlife. As poisons go, ethylene glycol has a particularly cruel and pernicious twist: It has a sweet flavor, which makes it appealing to many animals and children. Ethylene glycol "tastes very sweet," says veterinary toxicologist Larry A. Kerr, at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. "Animals love to lick the stuff up." About 4,200 people-including more than 700 children age five or under-are poisoned by antifreeze annually, according to the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission. Twenty-nine people died of ethylene glycol poisoning in 1994, the most recent year for which data are available. Antifreeze ingestion is one of the most common causes of poisoning of pets and other domestic animals and is responsible for tens of thousands of animal deaths annually, says Kerr.

A study by researchers at Colorado State University found that ethylene glycol causes half of all poisoning deaths of pet dogs and cats. In January 1995, a cougar at a California wildlife preserve died from ingesting antifreeze. The cooling system in your automobile is a complex machine. The coolant solution flows through channels inside the hot engine block, then through a pump, several hoses, the passenger heater, and the radiator. If a car is several years old and has not had careful preventive maintenance, any of these components can develop a leak. The result is a puddle of ethylene glycol that is a threat to wildlife.

One proposal is to add a "bittering agent" to ethylene glycol to reduce the likelihood of poisoning. "If we make it taste really bad, we might prevent kids from taking a second sip," says Rose Ann Soloway, administrator of the American Association of Poison Control Centers. The search for a suitable bittering agent for engine coolants presents unique scientific challenges. The substance must be strongly distasteful but nontoxic, have no effect on the performance of engine coolant, and remain chemically stable through thousands of cycles of heating and cooling. An ideal bittering agent has not yet been identified, Soloway says.

A company based in Omaha, Nebraska, formulated a nontoxic antifreeze based on a different chemical-propylene glycol. Unlike its molecular cousin ethylene glycol, propylene glycol is almost harmless to humans and animals. In fact, propylene glycol is an approved ingredient for animal food, as well as human cosmetics, snack foods, candy, seasonings and flavorings. For several years, automobile antifreeze based on propylene glycol has been sold under the brand name Sierra. According to Joel Adamson, vice president of Safe Brands Corporation, which markets Sierra, it works just as well as the traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze. When mixed with an equal volume of water, propylene glycol prevents freezing down to -35 �C (-31 �F). It appears that other manufacturers are following the lead of Safe Brands Corporation. Recently Prestone Corporation, one of the largest makers of traditional antifreeze, introduced a propylene glycol-based product called Low-Tox. The drawback? Propylene glycol costs more than ordinary antifreeze, says Adamson. However, as more people buy the safer products, the price should come down.

Out of concern that coolant leaking vehicles could pose a risk to zoo animals, the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) launched a program to encourage conversion to propylene glycol antifreeze in vehicles used at their animal facilities. In 1995 they persuaded 14 zoos to make the switch and some 30 more are expected to join in 1996. "Antifreeze poisonings of wildlife and pets are a well documented threat," says Joan Embry, spokesperson for the San Diego Zoo. "Spills, radiator leaks, boilovers, and improper disposal are common sources of accidental poisonings. Converting to a less toxic product is another way zoos can help preserve wildlife."

Emergency Treatment

In humans and other animals, ethylene glycol is broken down by alcohol dehydrogenase. This is the same enzyme that acts on ethanol and propylene glycol, the safer antifreeze. But the metabolism of ethylene glycol is dramatically different. Ethylene glycol is metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase into several toxic organic acids. One of the most important of these is oxalic acid, which reacts with calcium ions in the blood to form solid calcium oxalate in the bloodstream. The insoluble calcium oxalate crystals block the flow of blood and cause severe damage to the lungs, brain, heart, and kidneys. Although calcium oxalate crystals cause brain damage, the most serious injury is to the delicate blood-filtering structures

of the kidneys.

"What usually kills the animals is that it wipes out the kidney," says veterinary toxicologist Larry A. Kerr. "They die of uremic poisoning, if they survive the brain damage."

The ingestion of very small amounts of ethylene glycol can be fatal. Sixty mL of ethylene glycol-just 2 fluid ounces or 4 tablespoons-can kill a large dog or an adult human. A child can die by drinking 30 mL, about 2 tablespoons. One teaspoon (5 mL) can kill a cat.

A person who ingests ethylene glycol will soon be in severe pain and in critical condition; rapid intervention is needed if the person is to survive. The treatment is to administer ethanol-beverage alcohol. This treatment is recommended because the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase has an affinity for ethanol that is 100 times greater than for ethylene glycol. The idea is to "saturate the enzyme" with ethanol, explains Rose Ann Soloway

of the American Association of Poison Control Centers. "You want to tie

up all the alcohol dehydrogenase so there won't be any available for the ethylene glycol."

As medical staff closely monitor the patient's status, ethanol is administered over a period of days or weeks while ethylene glycol is slowly eliminated from the body, Soloway says. Eventually, ethylene glycol will pass through the kidneys into the urine. In severe cases, hemodialysis with an artificial kidney machine may be used to filter ethylene glycol and toxic organic acids from the blood stream.



Read more: antifreez
 
Hi,

Antifreeze / coolant does a lot more than just stop freezing. It contains corrosion inhibitors that prevent corrosion of the internal cooling system components. It also raises the boiling point of pure water which along with a pressurised system enable the coolant to go way above 100 deg without any issues.

A classic engine will have had silicate based coolant as standard, usually blue / green but depends on the coolant manufacturer to be honest. Generally though the red / orange coolant is extended life organic acid type. It's not recommended to mix them in significant quanities, but after a flush with plain water if a little of the other coolant still remained i.e. less than 5% it wouldn't do any harm.

Organic acid coolants can be quite agressive to some types of nylon, although this takes time it's not instant failure. Depends what nylon bits are in the system and what material spec they are. I reckon on a classic with a copper / brass radiator you've probably not got much nylon in the cooling system, if any. I'm struggling to think of any nylon parts on a classic, just the coolant expansion tank maybe ?

I think you'll be ok with the red coolant personally*

*Kungfu0210 accepts no responsibility for engine failures caused by his ****e advice ;)
 
Your car needs antifreeze because water increases in volume about 10% when it freezes, and this expansion can crack and ruin the engine block. To prevent cold-weather damage, ethylene glycol antifreeze is commonly added to the water that flows through the engine. When equal volumes of water and ethylene glycol antifreeze are mixed, the freezing point is lowered from the 0 �C (32 �F) of pure water to about -37 �C (-35 �F). Because outside temperatures rarely fall this low, your engine is protected from cracking.

Although vital for preventing engine damage, ethylene glycol antifreeze poses a serious threat to animals and humans. It is a rapid poison, quickly causing severe kidney and brain damage that often leads to death. It is also a powerful poison; as little as a few teaspoons of ethylene glycol is lethal to humans and wildlife. As poisons go, ethylene glycol has a particularly cruel and pernicious twist: It has a sweet flavor, which makes it appealing to many animals and children. Ethylene glycol "tastes very sweet," says veterinary toxicologist Larry A. Kerr, at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. "Animals love to lick the stuff up." About 4,200 people-including more than 700 children age five or under-are poisoned by antifreeze annually, according to the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission. Twenty-nine people died of ethylene glycol poisoning in 1994, the most recent year for which data are available. Antifreeze ingestion is one of the most common causes of poisoning of pets and other domestic animals and is responsible for tens of thousands of animal deaths annually, says Kerr.

A study by researchers at Colorado State University found that ethylene glycol causes half of all poisoning deaths of pet dogs and cats. In January 1995, a cougar at a California wildlife preserve died from ingesting antifreeze. The cooling system in your automobile is a complex machine. The coolant solution flows through channels inside the hot engine block, then through a pump, several hoses, the passenger heater, and the radiator. If a car is several years old and has not had careful preventive maintenance, any of these components can develop a leak. The result is a puddle of ethylene glycol that is a threat to wildlife.

One proposal is to add a "bittering agent" to ethylene glycol to reduce the likelihood of poisoning. "If we make it taste really bad, we might prevent kids from taking a second sip," says Rose Ann Soloway, administrator of the American Association of Poison Control Centers. The search for a suitable bittering agent for engine coolants presents unique scientific challenges. The substance must be strongly distasteful but nontoxic, have no effect on the performance of engine coolant, and remain chemically stable through thousands of cycles of heating and cooling. An ideal bittering agent has not yet been identified, Soloway says.

A company based in Omaha, Nebraska, formulated a nontoxic antifreeze based on a different chemical-propylene glycol. Unlike its molecular cousin ethylene glycol, propylene glycol is almost harmless to humans and animals. In fact, propylene glycol is an approved ingredient for animal food, as well as human cosmetics, snack foods, candy, seasonings and flavorings. For several years, automobile antifreeze based on propylene glycol has been sold under the brand name Sierra. According to Joel Adamson, vice president of Safe Brands Corporation, which markets Sierra, it works just as well as the traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze. When mixed with an equal volume of water, propylene glycol prevents freezing down to -35 �C (-31 �F). It appears that other manufacturers are following the lead of Safe Brands Corporation. Recently Prestone Corporation, one of the largest makers of traditional antifreeze, introduced a propylene glycol-based product called Low-Tox. The drawback? Propylene glycol costs more than ordinary antifreeze, says Adamson. However, as more people buy the safer products, the price should come down.

Out of concern that coolant leaking vehicles could pose a risk to zoo animals, the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) launched a program to encourage conversion to propylene glycol antifreeze in vehicles used at their animal facilities. In 1995 they persuaded 14 zoos to make the switch and some 30 more are expected to join in 1996. "Antifreeze poisonings of wildlife and pets are a well documented threat," says Joan Embry, spokesperson for the San Diego Zoo. "Spills, radiator leaks, boilovers, and improper disposal are common sources of accidental poisonings. Converting to a less toxic product is another way zoos can help preserve wildlife."

Emergency Treatment

In humans and other animals, ethylene glycol is broken down by alcohol dehydrogenase. This is the same enzyme that acts on ethanol and propylene glycol, the safer antifreeze. But the metabolism of ethylene glycol is dramatically different. Ethylene glycol is metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase into several toxic organic acids. One of the most important of these is oxalic acid, which reacts with calcium ions in the blood to form solid calcium oxalate in the bloodstream. The insoluble calcium oxalate crystals block the flow of blood and cause severe damage to the lungs, brain, heart, and kidneys. Although calcium oxalate crystals cause brain damage, the most serious injury is to the delicate blood-filtering structures

of the kidneys.

"What usually kills the animals is that it wipes out the kidney," says veterinary toxicologist Larry A. Kerr. "They die of uremic poisoning, if they survive the brain damage."

The ingestion of very small amounts of ethylene glycol can be fatal. Sixty mL of ethylene glycol-just 2 fluid ounces or 4 tablespoons-can kill a large dog or an adult human. A child can die by drinking 30 mL, about 2 tablespoons. One teaspoon (5 mL) can kill a cat.

A person who ingests ethylene glycol will soon be in severe pain and in critical condition; rapid intervention is needed if the person is to survive. The treatment is to administer ethanol-beverage alcohol. This treatment is recommended because the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase has an affinity for ethanol that is 100 times greater than for ethylene glycol. The idea is to "saturate the enzyme" with ethanol, explains Rose Ann Soloway

of the American Association of Poison Control Centers. "You want to tie

up all the alcohol dehydrogenase so there won't be any available for the ethylene glycol."

As medical staff closely monitor the patient's status, ethanol is administered over a period of days or weeks while ethylene glycol is slowly eliminated from the body, Soloway says. Eventually, ethylene glycol will pass through the kidneys into the urine. In severe cases, hemodialysis with an artificial kidney machine may be used to filter ethylene glycol and toxic organic acids from the blood stream.



Read more: antifreez

the red stuff is not E/G but I have the blue E/G in my other classic, did taste a bit rank when I had to syphon some out lol prob wouldnt do it after reading that lol
 
Hi,

Antifreeze / coolant does a lot more than just stop freezing. It contains corrosion inhibitors that prevent corrosion of the internal cooling system components. It also raises the boiling point of pure water which along with a pressurised system enable the coolant to go way above 100 deg without any issues.

A classic engine will have had silicate based coolant as standard, usually blue / green but depends on the coolant manufacturer to be honest. Generally though the red / orange coolant is extended life organic acid type. It's not recommended to mix them in significant quanities, but after a flush with plain water if a little of the other coolant still remained i.e. less than 5% it wouldn't do any harm.

Organic acid coolants can be quite agressive to some types of nylon, although this takes time it's not instant failure. Depends what nylon bits are in the system and what material spec they are. I reckon on a classic with a copper / brass radiator you've probably not got much nylon in the cooling system, if any. I'm struggling to think of any nylon parts on a classic, just the coolant expansion tank maybe ?

I think you'll be ok with the red coolant personally*

*Kungfu0210 accepts no responsibility for engine failures caused by his ****e advice ;)

thanks for a sensible usfull answer finally lol.
the expansion tank is brass too so unless the hosed have nylon in them I should be ok as I expect the gaskets are tin on an engine that age?

I was not worried about mixing them as it had red in there before too which is why put red/orange/pink back in!
 
You'll be ok then I reckon. The hoses are EPDM rubber so they are fine with OAT coolant. The head gasket will be ok too as it will either be metal or if not it will be metal with silicon or viton which is fine.

:)
 
Fett me old mate, me old mucker, Two things here...

1. As Kung Fu said Organic Acid Type (OAT) WILL be Fine mate

&

2. That "M" Stamp the ONLY Engine I've ever seen with an "M" stamp was a Old FORD MERCURY V8 Engine.

having Said that here a bit of info from the web ....But WHATEVER it is MOST DEFFO A FORD ENGINE!!!

M-code

The 351C 4V engines produced in 1970 and 1971 used this code. Engines varied in compression ratio; 1970 engines were 11.0:1 compression and produced 300 bhp (224 kW; 304 PS) at 5400 rpm, while 1971 versions had a slightly lower compression ratio of 10.7:1, and a reduced power output of 285 bhp (213 kW; 289 PS) at 5400 rpm. Ford owner's manuals for these engines recommended high octane gasoline (100+ octane in 1970) which was at the high end of the leaded gasoline available at the time. However, with the mid 1970's introduction of unleaded gasoline and lower octane ratings, and subsequent disappearance of the super high octane leaded fuels required to power these high compression engines, motorists were either unaware of potential damage or simply unable to find this kind of fuel any more. As a consequence, many of these otherwise durable engines met with an early demise due to the destructive effects of severe engine knocking caused by using low octane fuel.


Regards

Keith
 
thanks me old buddy , I hope it has 285 bhp :D

glad that anrifreeze is good , cost me £23 for one can :doh: trouble with being in a rush and halfords and being the only place open at 7.30pm

any luck with ye olde job hunt? (i'll stop asking if yer fed up with it, just let me know)

ever find out whos p38 was melting at the side of the road?
 
I can get one, be round there next weekend.

I am debating pressure washing it as stuart will be here on sat to fit my electronic igntion and clutch. I am hoping to learn both of those skills that day.

thing is the rocker covers are black and have gone flakey where its been stood and the inlet manifold/valley have collected the contents of the barn it was in but I dont want to fook it with the washer, what do we think? you can have it nice and clean in the pic then :D
 
mine says landrover on it so its prob not from a rover :)

Hmmm, I note the smile but just 'cos someone stuck a Landrover sticker on it...............

In reality, Land Rover didn't make the V8 in the '70s, they were a customer of the BL engine plant. LR took over responsibility for the engine in the mid 80s. My original '77 engine just says Rover on the rocker cover. IIRC, the compression ratio was stamped in front of the engine number. Early RRC (up to '74) were 8.5:1 and from 74, 8.25:1

Rover derived engins were 10.5:1 in the P6 and then down to 9.25 for late P6 and SD1

Cheers

Chris
 
oh and its not just a stickr,its the rocker covers too :p

I heard somwhere landrover didnt put engine numbers on replacement engines?????
 
your up late night owl :p

hows the beast?

have a look at my thread http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/anyone-know-where-i-can-get-cheaper-117733.html

and tell me if this is what you thought I needed to make that dizzy fit?

bit pricey hey!

Long day on SAABs, now waiting for the bath to run:D

The beast is going ok but got a bad water leak. I think the rad is fooked. Got some really sexy cranked trailing arms (adrenelin 4x4) the other day and a polybush set so gotta get the Disco off the drive asap so that I can get working on CYD.

The part in the other thread is, I think, the bit that the lad at RPI was telling me about when I rang them about mine. They make it 'in house' so not sure about the quality or how much testing they have done as they have only just started making them.

I thought you were going the Luminition route anyway. Its not a bad system.

BTW, if you want a new shiny valley gasket, pop round....I've got about 5 sets:D

Cheers

Chris
 
oh and its not just a stickr,its the rocker covers too :p

I heard somwhere landrover didnt put engine numbers on replacement engines?????

Hmmm interesting.

Maybe I could come and see it sometime. So it hasn't got a number in the block?
 
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