Major brake problems

cubensis · Aug 8, 2008

Someone please help me!
I replaced the rear calipers on my 300Tdi (non ABS) about a week ago.
After bleeding the brake lines & replacing all the brake fluid with new stuff with an eazibleed,i found that my brake pedal was going to the floor with a whooshing sound-only to return to firm after a few pumps.
The brake pedal needed to be pumped a few times to regain it's firmness.
I got the wife to pump the brakes while i bled each corner (several times)
manually.This still didn't help and i noticed that with the engine off,the brakes could be pumped to full "firmness" but with the engine on ie. a vaccuum applied to the servo,the brake pedal was at the floor again when pumped.The vaccuum pump is working correctly,the t-peice and associated pipework is o.k,there's vaccuum getting to the non-return valve (which is working properly).
I read through lots of threads and decided a second-hand servo would help...... .WRONG!
After reading a lot more threads,i decided a new master cylinder would be the answer.......WRONG AGAIN!
I still have the same symtoms and am currently waiting for the wife to come home and do the pedal pumping while i bleed....... AGAIN!
Hopefully,all that's needed is to bleed the system now but i suspect that it's not the case.
Could anyone suggest a possible cure in the meantime?
Thanks in advance.

david451 · Aug 8, 2008

cubensis said:
Someone please help me!
I replaced the rear calipers on my 300Tdi (non ABS) about a week ago.
After bleeding the brake lines & replacing all the brake fluid with new stuff with an eazibleed,i found that my brake pedal was going to the floor with a whooshing sound-only to return to firm after a few pumps.
The brake pedal needed to be pumped a few times to regain it's firmness.
I got the wife to pump the brakes while i bled each corner (several times)
manually.This still didn't help and i noticed that with the engine off,the brakes could be pumped to full "firmness" but with the engine on ie. a vaccuum applied to the servo,the brake pedal was at the floor again when pumped.The vaccuum pump is working correctly,the t-peice and associated pipework is o.k,there's vaccuum getting to the non-return valve (which is working properly).
I read through lots of threads and decided a second-hand servo would help...... .WRONG!
After reading a lot more threads,i decided a new master cylinder would be the answer.......WRONG AGAIN!
I still have the same symtoms and am currently waiting for the wife to come home and do the pedal pumping while i bleed....... AGAIN!
Hopefully,all that's needed is to bleed the system now but i suspect that it's not the case.
Could anyone suggest a possible cure in the meantime?
Thanks in advance.

Sounds like air, sometimes the brake can be a little soft until you have bedded the pads in.

Anyway here's how I bleed brakes:

Start with the furthest away one the N/S/R then the O/S/R, N/S/F and so on. Engine running get the wife to pump the pedal up until its hard, reasonable quickly, probably six or so pumps and hold it, and tell you she is holding it.

You open the bleeder and when the pedal that she is holding firmly reaches the floor she tells you, down, and you close the bleeder. She repeats this a few times, and if you are satisfied that all air is out move to the next.

Used this method all my life in garages and it has worked, only times it won't work is on some gearboxes which need to be back bled.

If you want to make a back bleeder all you need is a scoosher pump with some of the pipe, stick it on the bleeder and turn it on, it forces all the air back through the master. Might have to hold the pipe on though it tends to pop off.

cubensis · Aug 8, 2008

Just got back from bleeding the brakes AGAIN before reading your reply.
I've been bleeding with the engine OFF and when i switch on the engine again,nothing on the brake pedal.
This is my first land rover and all previous cars i've had have been bled with the engine OFF.
Could this be my problem?
By the way,thanks for the speedy reply-i really appreciate your help.

david451 · Aug 8, 2008

cubensis said:
Just got back from bleeding the brakes AGAIN before reading your reply.
I've been bleeding with the engine OFF and when i switch on the engine again,nothing on the brake pedal.
This is my first land rover and all previous cars i've had have been bled with the engine OFF.
Could this be my problem?
By the way,thanks for the speedy reply-i really appreciate your help.

I have bled brakes with the engine off as well but it helps to have it running, the method is more important though so go with the way I described or you can send air back into it, a lift of the foot before you get it shut off etc fookes it.

Dave 2000 · Aug 10, 2008

david451 said:
Used this method all my life in garages and it has worked, only times it won't work is on some

gearboxes

which need to be back bled.
quote]

Not wishing to appear to stupid but what has the gearbox got to do with it?

regards

Dave

david451 · Aug 10, 2008

Dave 2000 said:
david451 said:

Used this method all my life in garages and it has worked, only times it won't work is on some

gearboxes

which need to be back bled.
quote]

Not wishing to appear to stupid but what has the gearbox got to do with it?

regards

Dave

Click to expand...

Well stoopidy, some gearboxes have hydraulic clutches and the method I described wont work, just in case you ever have to bleed yer clutch .

Anyway you shud have sortid it by now or yer getin sacked, yer poor wife is gona have one leg like big arnie's and when she goes on holibags she'll be swimmin around in circles. Yuv done more pumpin than Peter North.

Dave 2000 · Aug 11, 2008

david451 said:
Dave 2000 said:

Well stoopidy, some gearboxes have hydraulic clutches and the method I described wont work, just in case you ever have to bleed yer clutch .

Anyway you shud have sortid it by now or yer getin sacked, yer poor wife is gona have one leg like big arnie's and when she goes on holibags she'll be swimmin around in circles. Yuv done more pumpin than Peter North.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm, perhaps you missed the part about bleeding the rear calipers?

And yes you are right reverse bleeding can work in some cases but on the SLAVE CYLINDER used to operate the clutch NOT the gearbox!!

So from bleeding rear calipers to reverse bleeding a GEARBOX..............ok,
so next time some poor sod has trouble with power reaching his brake lights then we could perhaps suggest checking the electrical supply to the top hose on the heater radiator

regards

Dave

david451 · Aug 11, 2008

Dave 2000 said:
david451 said:

Hmmmm, perhaps you missed the part about bleeding the rear calipers?

And yes you are right reverse bleeding can work in some cases but on the SLAVE CYLINDER used to operate the clutch NOT the gearbox!!

So from bleeding rear calipers to reverse bleeding a GEARBOX..............ok,
so next time some poor sod has trouble with power reaching his brake lights then we could perhaps suggest checking the electrical supply to the top hose on the heater radiator

regards

Dave

Click to expand...

Yep I was worried about this hapinin, yur wife has givin yer a good thrashin and yur deleeriouoos, bet you lost yur tempur and shouted at her.

Dave 2000 · Aug 11, 2008

david451 said:
Dave 2000 said:

Yep I was worried about this hapinin, yur wife has givin yer a good thrashin and yur deleeriouoos, bet you lost yur tempur and shouted at her.

Click to expand...

Now just to enlighten you a tad more. You are not (read NOT) replying to the guy who is having trouble with the brakes, You are replying to a contributor who does know what he is talking about.

Now let me see if we can send this in a little picture with borders of pretty bunny rabbits leaping through clumps of delicate flowers blowing in the wind in an effort to distract you from your delireum.

love you (vision of your cheek being grasped between finger and thumb whilst tweaking ever so gently).

regards

Dave X

Dave 2000 · Aug 11, 2008

cubensis said:
Someone please help me!
I replaced the rear calipers on my 300Tdi (non ABS) about a week ago.
After bleeding the brake lines & replacing all the brake fluid with new stuff with an eazibleed,i found that my brake pedal was going to the floor with a whooshing sound-only to return to firm after a few pumps.
The brake pedal needed to be pumped a few times to regain it's firmness.
I got the wife to pump the brakes while i bled each corner (several times)
manually.This still didn't help and i noticed that with the engine off,the brakes could be pumped to full "firmness" but with the engine on ie. a vaccuum applied to the servo,the brake pedal was at the floor again when pumped.The vaccuum pump is working correctly,the t-peice and associated pipework is o.k,there's vaccuum getting to the non-return valve (which is working properly).
I read through lots of threads and decided a second-hand servo would help...... .WRONG!
After reading a lot more threads,i decided a new master cylinder would be the answer.......WRONG AGAIN!
I still have the same symtoms and am currently waiting for the wife to come home and do the pedal pumping while i bleed....... AGAIN!
Hopefully,all that's needed is to bleed the system now but i suspect that it's not the case.
Could anyone suggest a possible cure in the meantime?
Thanks in advance.

Just to get back on the subject CUBENSIS try GENTLY clamping the rubber pipe that leads to the 'T' piece on the back axle. Then see if you have a decent brake pedal travel with the engine running.

If not then it is possible that the air is not only causing problems at the rear but also from the front from the newly introduced master cylinder, as stated earlier start at the wheel furthest from the master cylinder and work towards the master, apologies if the thread wandered a little, still at least you know your on a forum with people that have a sense of humour.

regards

Dave

david451 · Aug 11, 2008

Dave 2000 said:
david451 said:

Now just to enlighten you a tad more. You are not (read NOT) replying to the guy who is having trouble with the brakes, You are replying to a contributor who does know what he is talking about.

Now let me see if we can send this in a little picture with borders of pretty bunny rabbits leaping through clumps of delicate flowers blowing in the wind in an effort to distract you from your delireum.

love you (vision of your cheek being grasped between finger and thumb whilst tweaking ever so gently).

regards

Dave X

Click to expand...

I prefer nakud wumen dancin around my bed thank you, but if they are partially dressed in bunny kit even better. XXXX

PASTMASTER · Aug 12, 2008

Dave 2000 said:
Just to get back on the subject CUBENSIS try GENTLY clamping the rubber pipe that leads to the 'T' piece on the back axle. Then see if you have a decent brake pedal travel with the engine running.

If not then it is possible that the air is not only causing problems at the rear but also from the front from the newly introduced master cylinder, as stated earlier start at the wheel furthest from the master cylinder and work towards the master, apologies if the thread wandered a little, still at least you know your on a forum with people that have a sense of humour.

regards

Dave

If you are thinking of clamping a pipe you can get (used to be able to get?? I've had mine a long time) a special Lockheed/Girling non-damaging clamp from Halfrauds or similar. I haven't bled brakes for ages, but when I used to do it (when cars were simple and dealers were as crap as they still are) I used ABV automatic bleed valves. Worked perfectly every time. Wonder if you can still get them.

doug84 · Sep 2, 2008

I have a disco 200tdi. A few months ago the following happened. When driving for over 20 mins or so (when she got hot) everytime the breaks were usesd got a little stiffer and so on untill I was struggling in 1st to even move from a standstill... this happenening on the motorway was not good. Stop a few mins.. kick the wheels, she's fine again for another 20 mins or so.

It stopped happening on and off.. guess was a new master brake cylinder.. 2 months ago.. after a few weeks the same started happening.. finally it happened yesterday again.. Get in car brake drops to floor.. ten minutes later.. brakes are stiffer than Gary Glitter in Thailand... and locking on just as hard with no presure on the pedal.

Tried to bleed/flush everything last night, yet not even a squirt when trying to bleed it through.. result - another brake cylinder to be purchased tonight..

Is it me or does this seem rather dodgy? Anyone got any ideas? Or was I just bloody unlucky to et through 2 in as many months?

It may be relevant.. doesnt seem to be any leaks from anywhere, the resevoir was always a good happy level.. although the fluid did go a very concerning colour... might be my fault, as when we put a new cylinder (re con) on last time we just poured the old fluid from the resevoir back in (I know I know.. should have used new) Did suck out the fluid in the reseviour a few weeks ago and topped with fresh.. went nasty colour again.

Oh, and I was driving through floods a few days ago... but the problems was happening before this..

The Mad Hat Man · Sep 2, 2008

have a look here - he has the same problems.

wot colur did the fluid go?

doug84 · Sep 2, 2008

Yeh thats me... ang on, I'll reply on MY post (the other one rather than hijacking somones thread! (A fresh post never hurts)!

DevonDavid · Sep 2, 2008

Helllllllo Everybody

Dave 2000 · Sep 3, 2008

This is normaly indicative of a servo failure or servo filter failure. When it happens again (and it will) remove the vacuum pipe that leads into the servo, not at the pump end as the non return valve will stop the vacuum from being released.

Now with the vacuum released (it will take a few minutes for the diaphram (spelling looks wrong) to release the master) it wll no longer hold the master cylinder on, now the brakes should release enabling you to drive the car. WAIT FOR IT WAIT FOR IT!!!

Now you have NO SERVO ASSISTANCE so the brakes will be poor to respond but it will get you home, you will need arnie leg muscles though, the handbrake is not affected. If that turns out to be the fault then replace the servo as most never have a filter fitted anyway.

Give it ago, you never know your luck,

regards

Dave

doug84 · Sep 3, 2008

Well have just fitted another (second hand) master cylinder and all seems to be working as should.. getting a rebuild kit for one of the old ones (maybe both) -- anyone wanna buy a rebuild? As dad (the ex turbine engineer) can recon the cylinder with the kit(s).

If it happens again I'll give the vacuum pump trick a go.

Or I'll scrap the damned thing and buy a 300 with aircon

PS doesnt the hand breake go to the diff and therefore a bad idea to use when car is moving!!?

Tony S · Sep 3, 2008

I had the same problem with my 300tdi after fitting new pipes. Tried power bleeding and just about every other way i got so ****ed of with it i left it for a week standing on the drive then i went back to it to try the same old **** again and hey presto every thing was perfect. Don't know what it was but it has been great ever since.

Dave 2000 · Sep 4, 2008

Many servos's have an adjustment where the master cylinder connects, this is set at the factory and as wear takes place then you get the problems you report, you can adjust the problem out but this increases pedal travel however, the fact that the problem came after many years and the system not being disturbed and you replaced the matser and the same thing occured and now a third master are you that unlucky?

The master cylinder has no way of holding the brake pressure on (the pressure you indicated preventing you driving) once the pedal has been released, the ONLY thing capable of providing high braking force is the servo.

You would have been better off driving it the 20 minutes or so until the problem came back and then release the servo as advised, if nothing else you could have discounted that as the culprit.

The handbrake operates a drum system on the back of the transfer box stopping the propshaf from rotating, using it will have no effect on the differential.

I hope your fix turns out right,

regards

Dave

Major brake problems

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