Jumping out of gear

jamesmartin said:

true except with a lr series box 2nd is constant mesh and helical cut with dog teeth,only 1st and rev are sliding straight cut hence the whine ,in that it slides into mesh with 1st layshaft gear and slides to lock 2nd to main shaft,

Click to expand...

whoops... bang to rights!

As someone who gets involved with a big range of vehicles (earliest one in my workshop right now dates from 1898) can I take this opportunity to make a bit of a point please?
Land Rovers are not in an engineering sense actually agricultural. Sure crash gears are old school but the amount of r&d involved in getting as far as 2nd gear in a Series LR is quite considerable and is a very far cry from second gear even in a 1920s Bentley with all its associated kudos!

Vintage-and-Classic said:

whoops... bang to rights!

As someone who gets involved with a big range of vehicles (earliest one in my workshop right now dates from 1898) can I take this opportunity to make a bit of a point please?
Land Rovers are not in an engineering sense actually agricultural. Sure crash gears are old school but the amount of r&d involved in getting as far as 2nd gear in a Series LR is quite considerable and is a very far cry from second gear even in a 1920s Bentley with all its associated kudos!

Click to expand...

i think id find it very interesting to talk to you , in my experience it seemed to me from late 70s on agricultural was slightly advanced from general car market

jamesmartin said:

i think id find it very interesting to talk to you , in my experience it seemed to me from late 70s on agricultural was slightly advanced from general car market

Click to expand...

LOL it's no good trying to get an objective opinion from me: I can't get excited about modern production cars at all and I do believe that interesting post 1980 designs are in the minority! I do have a few customers with "modern classics"... Maserati 3200, Jaguar XKR etc and those are very interesting but my daily drivers date from 1983 and 1960 respectively..... I warned you that I was a dinosaur It sounds as though you have some proper "hands on experience" there yourself!

i started off as an agricultural engineer then land rover reconditioners , we used to stuff for lr and mod and public, i now just work for myself , i did a car box a year ago or so in which the main bearings were sealed like you get with an external shaft bearing, except seal was a filter so that bearing would be running in clean oil even though the box was running on dirty , at fill for life adaption it seems

So I got the last shaft out today, everything on the bench for inspection everything looks ok apart from these, are these the dog teeth you mentioned. The slivers of metal in the picture are they from where I knocked out the shaft?there is a lot of scoring on the large washer.

theres not much left of ther dog teeth on 2nd gear no wonder its jumping out of gear , 1st gear teeth are very poor too as will the layshaft corresponding gear, 2nd gear has friction heat damage to thrust washer , id think youd need new shaft plus washers and pins bush or bushes for 2nd and 3rd , 3rd gear 2nd gear and 1st gear, corresponding gears on lay shaft new 3rd/4th synchro hub ,new bearings and quite likely cp ( input shaft )have you any pics of it , there are several different choices of gears to suit each suffix ie rear lay shaft gear is either 14 or 13 tooth

Thanks for that, will look in manual and get a picture of the Input shaft. The number on the casing is 251.......B not sure if that's any help. All the angled teeth look fine it's the straight cut ones that have wear.

b should be the suffix which you use to order the correct parts ,but you still count the teeth,check size of front bearing etc to ensure it is when new parts arrive, straight teeth are more prone to wear , but 2nd gear has a chip and because dog teeth are buggered you need a new gear , 3rd had wear in dog teeth too, put a pic up of 3rd 4th synchro also,you will find a new shaft is needed plus pins and washers,with the new bush you have a choice of series 2 type single piece 239706 or the series 3 type 2 piece frc4077 and frc4076 both will do the job ,but later 2 piece type is often better as it alows rotation between the 2 and since your supposed to dry run fit gear and bush check end float and if too great reduce size of bush by rubbing on a flat surface with emery cloth, you need to do both gears and sometimes you find new bush too short so its easier just swapping 1 bush not both which with single bush you cant , bush is then fitted to shaft without gears and washers selected so its a tight fit when snap ring is fitted

Thanks for all that James, as a total novice in these things I will have to read all through that a few times and consult my manual to get my head round it. If you get a spare minute would mind listing the bits you think I will need, then I can set about trying to source them. Assuming Brit part are a no go area. bearmach ? Want to use timpkin bearings if possible. Who do you recommend/ use.

britpart ot bearmach will do, the factory who made those parts has long since gone all replacements are pattern, you will find the odd gear or part non unseable due to bush not fitting or poorly sized but if you do just send back and request another, timken make taper bearings there is only 2 and they are in the t/box, ill give you a list based on suffix b series 2 box

Pictures of the shaft and bits

Do all these look usable?

depends on what you want , 3rd geart sand synchro hub would run again but they are worn.and something id change ,intermediate shaft looks ok but layshaft reart most gear wants changing

For the sake of a few more pounds it's probably worth doing it all.
When you get time a list of parts needed would be great.
Thanks

ill sort it tomorow

Thanks you.

right for suffix b
stc1130 clutch release brg
23605 rear seal
1645 rear brg
501617 first gear m/s
501616 first l/s
90217389 rev gear
571218 or frc4076 /frc4077
rtc1412 rear l/s brg
245766 second gear
264250 m/s
6405 pin m/s
rtc1957 snap ring
rtc1979 pin m/s rear thrust washers
rtc1962 .125 in
50702 .128 in
50703 .130 in
231737 .135 in
267572 .125 in front thrust washers
267573 .128 in
267574 .130 in
267575 .135 in
245767 third gear
frc1758 synchro unit
55714 front pinion brg
528701 front l/s brg
542231 front pinion
528683 tab washer l/s
600603 gasket set

Jesus, that's a list. Thanks James.

obviously you only need one of each thrust washer, and we havent seen pinion

How would I know which thrust washers to use do I have to measure them or will the old ones have a number on. I will have a look at the pinion tomorrow and if it looks iffy I will post a picture of it.