Ignorant wannabe environmentalists

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Steve Taylor wrote:
> Tim Hobbs wrote:
>
>>
>> Large power stations operate at much higher efficiency than petrol
>> engines...

>
>
> Much ? No thermal power station can be more then roughly 30% efficient.
> What is the conversion efficiency of a car engine ?
> Steve

Typical diesel ~30-35%
petrol ~20-25%

rest is heat given up to everything other than useful driving power

Terry
 
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:20:59 GMT, terry <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Steve Taylor wrote:
>> Tim Hobbs wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Large power stations operate at much higher efficiency than petrol
>>> engines...

>>
>>
>> Much ? No thermal power station can be more then roughly 30% efficient.
>> What is the conversion efficiency of a car engine ?
>> Steve

>Typical diesel ~30-35%
>petrol ~20-25%
>
>rest is heat given up to everything other than useful driving power
>
>Terry


ISTR reading that large modern power stations achieve over 40%
efficiency. I'll try to find out where I read it...


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'95 Discovery V8i aka "The Disco" (FOR SALE)
'03 Volvo V70

My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk
Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com
Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com
 
>
>ISTR reading that large modern power stations achieve over 40%
>efficiency. I'll try to find out where I read it...


I was wrong. Combined Cycle stations in Japan are running at 54% and
the next is expected to run at 60%.

They aren't alone.
http://www.power-technology.com/projects/ballylumford/

Thermal stations do seem to be running in the mid to high thirties
percent. That's still better than a car engine (even a well
maintained one, which not all are). Not sure what the emissions are
like, but I'd bet on the power station there as well.




--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'95 Discovery V8i aka "The Disco" (FOR SALE)
'03 Volvo V70

My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk
Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com
Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com
 
Tim Hobbs wrote:

> Thermal stations do seem to be running in the mid to high thirties
> percent. That's still better than a car engine (even a well
> maintained one, which not all are). Not sure what the emissions are
> like, but I'd bet on the power station there as well.


It all depends on what you mean by efficiency. If a power station JUSt
generates electricity - like almost of ours,the maximum efficiency is
around 35%. If the power station supplies energy in thermal and
electrical, then you go up to these 60-80% levels. Of course, if you
increase the temperature differential in your process, you get better
efficiency. Thats why a jet engine gets more efficient as it goes up.

Steve
 
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:11:03 +0100, Steve Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tim Hobbs wrote:
>
>> Thermal stations do seem to be running in the mid to high thirties
>> percent. That's still better than a car engine (even a well
>> maintained one, which not all are). Not sure what the emissions are
>> like, but I'd bet on the power station there as well.

>
>It all depends on what you mean by efficiency. If a power station JUSt
>generates electricity - like almost of ours,the maximum efficiency is
>around 35%. If the power station supplies energy in thermal and
>electrical, then you go up to these 60-80% levels. Of course, if you
>increase the temperature differential in your process, you get better
>efficiency. Thats why a jet engine gets more efficient as it goes up.
>
>Steve


Agreed. There are few options for CHP on a car.

Then again one chemical plant I am familiar with (and I'm sure they
are not unique) has their own CHP station on-site and regularly export
power to the grid. They could use that power to run their company
cars and vans - it would work fairly well as drivers could recharge
their cars at work during the day and the vans could recharge at
night.


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'95 Discovery V8i aka "The Disco" (FOR SALE)
'03 Volvo V70

My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk
Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com
Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com
 
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:11:03 +0100, Steve Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Tim Hobbs wrote:
>
>> Thermal stations do seem to be running in the mid to high thirties
>> percent. That's still better than a car engine (even a well
>> maintained one, which not all are). Not sure what the emissions are
>> like, but I'd bet on the power station there as well.

>
>It all depends on what you mean by efficiency. If a power station JUSt
>generates electricity - like almost of ours,the maximum efficiency is
>around 35%. If the power station supplies energy in thermal and
>electrical, then you go up to these 60-80% levels. Of course, if you
>increase the temperature differential in your process, you get better
>efficiency. Thats why a jet engine gets more efficient as it goes up.
>
>Steve


We tend to use two or three 8 megawatt gas turbines (Solar Mars) for
electricity, depending upon demand, but each has a waste heat recovery
unit for the exhaust gases to partly flow through. The control system
balances the demand for energy required and efficiency.
Must look to see waht the calculated figure is...

Dan
 

"Steve Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> Thats why a jet engine gets more efficient as it goes up.
>

Hmmmm... not quite that simple. Jets become more efficient due to the lower
mass of available oxygen at altitude requiring a lower mass of fuel to
maintain a constant "mixture ratio". The output thrust is (very) basically
the ratio between airflow velocity at compressor entry to airflow velocity
at jet pipe nozzle outlet. This is clouded by modern high bypass-ratio
turbines, but the basic theory is the same,- Take a mass of air, add a fuel
to it and burn the mixture to create a velocity increase.
That is why piston prop engines are more efficient at lower altitudes, at
higher altitudes there is 1. less airmass to accelerate rearwards (creating
thrust), necessitating the prop working harder, which it can't because 2.
there is a lower available oxygen mass entering the engine in which to burn
fuel.

Badger.


 
In message <[email protected]>, Richard Brookman
<[email protected]> writes
>Austin Shackles wrote:
>>
>> 'course, if they come back with "Actually, I ride a bicycle" then
>> they've rather got you

>
>No they haven't. They have just proved to you that they are a smug tosser
>who deserves to be upended into the nearest ditch, their beards set on fire
>(that includes the women) and their sandals smeared with tofu. All their
>opinions can be safely ignored.
>
>Bikes are great, and I've nothing against cyclists as such (I've done a lot
>of bike miles in my time), but anyone who says "Actually, I ride a bike"
>wants shooting. ;-)
>

Quite so - they shouldn't slag off their partner in public.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 
On or around 19 Aug 2004 04:07:51 -0700, [email protected] (Richard
Brookman) enlightened us thusly:

>There's a similar argument with hydrogen cells. "Look", say the
>e-****s, "it runs on water!" What they don't say is that it requires
>massive energy to separate the hydrogen from the water in the first
>place, and all that energy creates pollution for someone.


this is a point I'm fond of making. I found some figures a bit back for
transport energy usage in the USA, which suggest that to operate the
transport fleet on watre-derived hydrogen would require the electrical
output of something like 3000 sq. mi. of solar panels, windmills covering
the land area of 2 medium-sized states or one nuclear power station.

and that leaves out the amount of water you (temporarily) extract form the
environment, in a country (the US) which is already getting marginal on
water supply in some areas.

and you can't (directly) use sea-water, either, you'd have to desalinate it
first, using even more energy in the process.

the trouble with all the envirogeeks and the hydrogen fuel-cell bandwagon
(which the government are jumping onto as well, with doubtless equal lack of
forethought) is that many of them fail to appreciate the size of the problem
- road transport in this country uses millions of gallons of fuel PER DAY,
and unless you can contrive an enormous state-change in the way we operate,
you need to supply that sort of amount of alternative fuel.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Too Busy: Your mind is like a motorway. Sometimes it can be jammed by
too much traffic. Avoid the jams by never using your mind on a
Bank Holiday weekend.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> this is a point I'm fond of making. I found some figures a bit back for
> transport energy usage in the USA, which suggest that to operate the
> transport fleet on watre-derived hydrogen would require the electrical
> output of something like 3000 sq. mi. of solar panels, windmills covering
> the land area of 2 medium-sized states or one nuclear power station.


I did note though the development of a new photo-catalytic cell which
decomposes water using sunlight directly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3536156.stm

efficiency is currently only 8%.

I quote.
"This means, for example, that at the benchmark 10% performance level, a
7m x7m Tandem Cell™ unit on a double garage roof is capable of producing
enough hydrogen from sunlight to run a Mercedes A-Class vehicle 11,000
miles over a year in Los Angeles light conditions,"

This of course assumes an insolation of rather more than we get in the
North of England.....

Steve
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
>
> 'course, if they come back with "Actually, I ride a bicycle" then
> they've rather got you


No they haven't. They have just proved to you that they are a smug tosser
who deserves to be upended into the nearest ditch, their beards set on fire
(that includes the women) and their sandals smeared with tofu. All their
opinions can be safely ignored.

Bikes are great, and I've nothing against cyclists as such (I've done a lot
of bike miles in my time), but anyone who says "Actually, I ride a bike"
wants shooting. ;-)

--

Rich

Series 2a
RR 4.6
V8 trialler
Dawes Galaxy
Unidentified mountain bike, possibly Halfords


 
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:28:49 GMT, Alex <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Don't worry about it, I think Martyn has a bee in his bonnet about gay
>guys.....


Missed that comment. I hope I don't appear to be that way inclined.
FWIW, I don't care about anyones sexual orientation so long as they're
happy and don't hurt anyone (without consent, obviously) :)


--
Some Land Roveresque (101 biased), links available
from: http://links.solis.co.uk/Geek/X4_Land_Rover/
I also have a little Land Rover site biased toward
my beloved 101 "Grumble", at: http://www.101fc.net


Reading this in 'alt.fan.landrover'? Did you know
there's a group FAQ: http://www.aflfaq.dyndns.info
 
"Roberts" <[email protected]> wrote

> Do not not let these people con you. Batteries have to be recharged

at some
> time and then they give off serious life threatening gases.


Yes they are called oxygen and hydrogen. But are not life threatening
unless you add a spark and cause an explosion!


Reg

 
In article <[email protected]>, Mother <"@
{mother} @"@101fc.net> says...
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:28:49 GMT, Alex <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Don't worry about it, I think Martyn has a bee in his bonnet about gay
> >guys.....

>
> Missed that comment. I hope I don't appear to be that way inclined.


Fnarrr!

> FWIW, I don't care about anyones sexual orientation so long as they're
> happy and don't hurt anyone (without consent, obviously) :)


Ooh-er missus!

Sorry. It's been a long week, and I'm at work until 0830 tomorrow.
*sigh*

Cheers,
Aled.
 
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:19:41 +0100, Aled <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Mother <"@
>{mother} @"@101fc.net> says...
>> A mate who has lived in the USA for a few years now was telling me
>> that whilst stood on the pavement (sidewalk) having a quick fag
>> (prolly not the best term to use in the USA)

>
>Hrm, I recall driving from Indianapolis to Washington DC when I lived in
>the US for a year. I took some students up in a rented people carrier -
>one of them was a friend of mine and I was the only person they knew
>insnae enough and old enough to drive them/get on the insurance.
>
>At the time I smoked, and about 3am, pulled over as I'd run out. When
>asked by several sleepy students why we were stopping, I answered "I'm
>just stopping to pick up a pack of fags."
>
>*sigh*
>
>That became the standing joke for several hundred miles, in both
>directions.


Don't worry about it, I think Martyn has a bee in his bonnet about gay
guys.....

Alex
 
On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:43:04 +0100, Aled <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>At this point she looked very embarassed and found something rather
>interesting in her shoes. I gave her a bit of a telling off for doing
>something with such obvious lack of thought, and asked her if she was
>feeling sorry to donate some money to the MR on the website.


nice one.


as has been pointed out, by some, a discovery (for example) takes up no more
roadspace and probably uses not much more fuel than a Sharalahambra
people-carrier, and since it will typically be on the road about twice the
years/milage of the latter, it'll probably use less resources overall.

Worth asking the whingers what they drive. If they say something big and
thirsty like a merc or summat, you've got 'em. If they say a 2CV then
you've still got 'em, 'cos the 2CV predates all the emission legislation,
and even the most recent don't meet modern standards, which is one reason
why they stopped making 'em.

'course, if they come back with "Actually, I ride a bicycle" then they've
rather got you, but you can point out that their bicycle can't carry 6
passengers...

My disco does (in term time) get used to carry 6 schoolkids from remote
areas to school.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Don't worry about it, I think Martyn has a bee in his bonnet about gay
> guys.....


Could be worse. He could have a bug up his ass about it. :)

Cheers,
Aled (hoping that this is a saying known outside of rural Indiana,
otherwise he's in real trouble).
 

I would have started with "to go f**k herself" and just left it at that.


Pete

us colonials are so uncouth



"Then she went off on another rant so I told her "to go
> f**k herself and drove off" (



 

>
>'course, if they come back with "Actually, I ride a bicycle" then they've
>rather got you, but you can point out that their bicycle can't carry 6
>passengers...
>


Didn't somebody once prove that cyclist emits more CO2/mile than a
petrol engine?

Alex
 

"Mother" <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> On 16 Aug 2004 08:06:17 -0700, [email protected] (Fergus
> Kendall) wrote:
> Count yerself lucky...
>
> A mate who has lived in the USA for a few years now was telling me
> that whilst stood on the pavement (sidewalk) having a quick fag
> (prolly not the best term to use in the USA) a woman crossed the road
> to say "your smoking is killing my unborn baby".
>
> A few moments to let this sink in, the only polite British response
> could have been "I do apologise, I didn't know you were pregnant"
>
> "I'm not", she replied, "but that's not the point"...


Was in the smoking area of the local pub for lunch not so long ago, and a
pregnant woman sat down in smoking area (plenty of room in non smoking) and
really started to complain loudly of the smoke... after her meal lit a fag
....had a drink, lit another one...

Vam


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