hot start problem with a difference

Vechicle is a 97 dse with 153k miles on it.

Fuel pump was replaced with a refurbed unit18 months ago I fitted and all was well. No problem starting hot or cold have done 6k on this pump.

Well today I had a list of jobs new waterpump as it was leaking, fitted a new thermostat whilst in the area and cleaned the coolant temp sensor up as it was filty and the guage never got out of the blue zone.

Also removed the fuel pump to fit a new o ring as it had a small oil leak from the removal of it when I put a refurb unit in.

Now the problem I seem to have is that it seems to struggle to start when hot ie turns over up to 8 -10 times before it starts, now this can vary sometimes it will go straight away and start or go for 8 to 10 cranks.

I have checked all fuel pipes unions and leak off pipes and have time the fip as per rave with the correct tools checked everything I have taken off and rechecked and all is well.

The dial guage I used is in mm and rave states 0.02mm when timing pump and mine is within spec I checked it 5 times and got the same reading each time. The car runs well and pulls well in all gears so I know the pump is timed right as far as im aware.

The only thing I can think of is now the temp sensor is getting a reading and im seeing it on the guage this is causing the problem of the hard to start.

When the pump was done the first time and the car was hot and switched off and then startd straight away and the glow plug light didnt even illuminate.

What has gone wrong any ideas people at present I dont trust the car now

Where did you fit the O'ring to? Temp on gauge has nothing to do with starting that is down to ECU temp sensor a different item.

Front of pump on the housing which mates to the timing cover

matt1987 said:

Front of pump on the housing which mates to the timing cover

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Ok no problem with that, it's the one round the pressure head that can get you in trouble. But the temp gauge sender does not effect starting. That is down to ECU temp sensor. You should have two, one brown or blue, instrument temp gauge. And a green one ECU temp sensor. If ECU sensor is duff or the connections are bad ECU reverts to a set 50 degrees default, that may give you what you have. Temp gauge sender is just above injection pump, ECU sender a little further toward rear of head.

Cheers wammer for that the engine temp to guage is the brown one which I cleaned up and is now working i have managed to get the battery to go flat so im now charging that up il have a look for the engine temp sensor to ecu tomorrow, is it located between the 5th and 6th inlet ports as I dont remember seeing it when the inlet was off.

The only other thing I have thought of is if the timing is out but surely it would give me lack of power. It drives exactly how it did before I done the fip o ring this afternoon just hard to start when warm or hot.

The 18 month old pump rules out being worn and timing chain stretch as that has all been altered as per rave whilst using the camshaft tool and feeler guages to 4.61mm if I remember right.

Il get the battery charged up and see what tomorrow brings

matt1987 said:

Cheers wammer for that the engine temp to guage is the brown one which I cleaned up and is now working i have managed to get the battery to go flat so im now charging that up il have a look for the engine temp sensor to ecu tomorrow, is it located between the 5th and 6th inlet ports as I dont remember seeing it when the inlet was off.

The only other thing I have thought of is if the timing is out but surely it would give me lack of power. It drives exactly how it did before I done the fip o ring this afternoon just hard to start when warm or hot.

The 18 month old pump rules out being worn and timing chain stretch as that has all been altered as per rave whilst using the camshaft tool and feeler guages to 4.61mm if I remember right.

Il get the battery charged up and see what tomorrow brings

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Yep the feeler is to allow for the chain stretch. Take it you set pump to .90 mm. Everything should be fine. Your problem maybe the battery not spinning it well enough.

Are you saying .90mm preload. I timed it the same way as I did last time which was set tdc and lock it, remove pump fit o ring install pump tighten housing nut fit dial guage set preload, remove lock pin turn engine over and reset locking pin zero guage and remove pin turn over reset lock pin and slacken off pump nuts and turn to get desired reading of .02mm tighten pump nuts and repeated five times to make sure all set fitted all together and started it. When turning engine over two cranks turn to one head turn.

Hope that makes sense I did see the .90mm and used that as preload.

This could be where I have gone wrong maybe but I didnt set .90mm last time

I think I see what I have done wrong please correct me if im wrong.

Once pump is fitted and tdc is achieved remove the pin and spin crank twice and insert pin slacken pump nuts and adjust to .90mm lock pump nuts remove pin spin crank twice and insert pin adjust pump to .02mm above .90mm whilst making final move towards the head.

If that procedure is right il re time the car tomorrow

Turn engine until first cam is up right. Insert DTI and set a couple of mm on dial. Continue to turn engine until dial stops falling. Then zero it. Continue to turn engine until lock pin can be fitted. Make sure you have lock pin in slot by trying to turn engine both ways. If you cannot turn it one way but can move it backwards you are fouled on one of the crank position sensor pins that are 20 degrees either side of TDC slot. With lock pin positioned correctly, read DTI, should be .90 mm + or _ .02 mm. If not set pump to this, last movement always towards engine to take up slack in pump internal couplings.

So if I lock the crank first and remove pin and turn until lowest point is reached then zero then turn till crank locks at tdc and it should read .90mm if not adjust pump always adjust to engine.

matt1987 said:

Cheers wammer for that the engine temp to guage is the brown one which I cleaned up and is now working i have managed to get the battery to go flat so im now charging that up il have a look for the engine temp sensor to ecu tomorrow, is it located between the 5th and 6th inlet ports as I dont remember seeing it when the inlet was off.

The only other thing I have thought of is if the timing is out but surely it would give me lack of power. It drives exactly how it did before I done the fip o ring this afternoon just hard to start when warm or hot.

The 18 month old pump rules out being worn and timing chain stretch as that has all been altered as per rave whilst using the camshaft tool and feeler guages to 4.61mm if I remember right.

Il get the battery charged up and see what tomorrow brings

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The engine ECU temp sensor is located half way along the head roughly in line with the oil filter. The one at the back is the over heat switch that operates the aircon fans.

matt1987 said:

So if I lock the crank first and remove pin and turn until lowest point is reached then zero then turn till crank locks at tdc and it should read .90mm if not adjust pump always adjust to engine.

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No follow the instructions as i outlined them. You may not have enough travel on the DTI to turn the engine over a pump cam.

Ok well I have re timed the engine and all is good the measurement was 0.91 which is inspect, changed leak off pipes as I was there checked for fuel leaks all ok bleed off the injectors all ok fired her up and all was well no leaks and the car drives well so pump is all good no dead spot or anything. Once up to temp and switched off and then started again it will just crank and then just fire it also depends how you catch it.

Have poored cold water over the pump to see if worn and it doesnt make any difference to being either hot pump or cold pump.

Have tested battery and it has a dead cell so will get a new on during the week. I have fitted another good battery from a different car and it will start but crank abit. I will get the biggest battery I can fit in it and go from there.

Im heading down the route of the battery even the known good one aint man enough to turn it over quick enough

Any other suggestions

Battery Megastore on line, 135AH 1000 CCA. Low cranking speed is a common cause of poor starting on a diesel.

Yes I agree datatek but when it is cold it fires straight away after the glow plugs light go out once it is hot and switched off and wait a few seconds it will fire straight away but left for ten or more seconds it just cranks and cranks and then it will fire it can be cranking for 10 to 20 seconds.

I have cooled the pump when on a hot engine and it still takes ages to fire. Plus recon pump has only been on car for 18 months and done 6k miles it was fine u til I removed pump and refitted and timed it is when I started having issues.

matt1987 said:

Yes I agree datatek but when it is cold it fires straight away after the glow plugs light go out once it is hot and switched off and wait a few seconds it will fire straight away but left for ten or more seconds it just cranks and cranks and then it will fire it can be cranking for 10 to 20 seconds.

I have cooled the pump when on a hot engine and it still takes ages to fire. Plus recon pump has only been on car for 18 months and done 6k miles it was fine u til I removed pump and refitted and timed it is when I started having issues.

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Air leak in the pipe work perhaps?

Changed the leak offs and there is no leaks on the fuel delivery line from filter to pump and no air being shown either. It always started hot and cold until I took the pump off and changed the o ring on the front of the pump and timed it all up and now struggles to start when hot. Have cooled pump off incase that was the problem but it is exactly the same. Im at a loss at the minute

matt1987 said:

Changed the leak offs and there is no leaks on the fuel delivery line from filter to pump and no air being shown either. It always started hot and cold until I took the pump off and changed the o ring on the front of the pump and timed it all up and now struggles to start when hot. Have cooled pump off incase that was the problem but it is exactly the same. Im at a loss at the minute

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Are you absolutely sure you were not snagged on one of the 20 degree pins. When you did the pump timing? Very easy to do if you are not aware of them. With timing pin in slot engine cannot be turned in either direction, snagged on one of the pins it can. That's how you check it's properly engaged.

I removed the starter to make 100% sure I was in the correct slot and I couldnt move it when it was in the correct hole

matt1987 said:

I removed the starter to make 100% sure I was in the correct slot and I couldnt move it when it was in the correct hole

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OK but did you follow the correct procedure, from your description you did not. Get someone with a Nanocom to check the modulation, odds on it's a mile out.