Hiring a car trailer?

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D

Derry Argue

Guest
In contrast to the header, I am considering buying a car trailer big enough
to take a Land Rover. (Capacity around 2.5 tonnes).

My reasoning is that I need a "new" Land Rover and will require the means
to collect it. That means two drivers, or hitch-hiking, training, busing,
or flying a long distance. I'm thinking that there must be others in a
similar situation and I might be able to justify the expense by hiring it
out occasionally.

So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
on, talk me out of it. Please!

Derry
 
Derry Argue came up with the following;:

> So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
> there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
> on, talk me out of it. Please!


I dunno the legal ramifications, but can offer the following anecdotal
tales.

Mate had exactly the same problem. He wanted a Landrover and had found one
in Fife which wasn't driveable and he needed to get it home so bought a car
trailer. That bit went fine.

At home he decided he'd do the same and hire it out to friends,
acquaintances etc First few 'customers' he had no problems with but then he
got it back one day with a punctured tyre, a light pod missing and various
scratches, dents etc. The chap he'd loaned it too wouldn't cough up and all
repairs came out of his pocket. Turned out that he'd not included any
insurance or legal waiver form or indeed any paperwork for the safe return
of trailer and had relied on 'knowing' the people he loaned it too, I'd
suggest this isn't a good thing.

He then set himself up as a 'man with a trailer who'll collect vehicles and
transport them anywhere', which worked infinitely better. He got paid
up-front and whilst the didn't make a lot of money soon covered the cost of
the trailer and began to make some small profit.

Until he had an accident whilst carrying someone's car. Again he had been a
numpty and didn't take out enough insurance, though he argued that that was
why he'd used a broker to advise him.

I'd suggest that if you do loan the trailer out, do it as a small, part-time
even, business and not as 'favours' for people you know.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!


 
On 2006-04-05, Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:

> So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
> there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
> on, talk me out of it. Please!


Don't forget the damage to the trailer, most trailer hire places will
have numerous tales of woe regarding trailers wrecked by customers,
people who don't use trailers much (like me) haven't got a clue how to
treat them, especially when it comes to reversing.

Also there's the common misconception that if the trailer starts to
snake, you speed up to stop it --- the worst thing to do according to
any trailer shop I've ever spoken to. The last one I dealt with
complained that he fairly regularly loses trailers to people going too
fast, getting the trailer snaking, then speeding up to try and stop
it.

It seems like a lot of hassle for £50 or so per day.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
Good advice, as usual.

I had similar thoughts about a horse box....but a short spell of dealing
with the sort of horse owner we have around here quickly changed my mind.

One horse was very reluctant to be loaded. So, of course, I helped too
although my knowledge of horses is minimal. Eventually, the horse was
loaded and transported. Turned out the horse had laminitis which can come
on very quickly.

One of the people involved got nasty, said we should not have even
attempted to load the horse, called in the RSPCA and there was talk of
prosecutions. But apparently this condition can come on very quickly indeed
(as in this case, there was no reason to think the horse was anything other
than nervous of entering the box) and no one could be blamed. The horse was
later destroyed. Moral -- never volunteer.

I think I'll have to think that out again.

Derry
 

"Derry Argue" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In contrast to the header, I am considering buying a car trailer big
> enough
> to take a Land Rover. (Capacity around 2.5 tonnes).
>
> My reasoning is that I need a "new" Land Rover and will require the
> means
> to collect it. That means two drivers, or hitch-hiking, training,
> busing,
> or flying a long distance. I'm thinking that there must be others in a
> similar situation and I might be able to justify the expense by hiring
> it
> out occasionally.
>
> So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and
> (b) is
> there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down!
> Go
> on, talk me out of it. Please!
>


Been there.

Everything is stacked against doing this sort of thing as a part-time
business.

Word of mouth will get you a bit of work, but "friends" expect to get
the trailer cheaper than a normal commercial rate. Then when you've
quoted a price, they'll want odd little extras throwing in, like
securing straps. It seems mean, doesn't it, wanting an extra couple of
quid for straps, but they mysteriously suffer a great deal more wear and
tear in one hire than a month of your own use.

And so does the trailer. There are _lots_ of ways to abuse a car
trailer: loading it "on the twist"; spinning the wheels of a car being
driven on, thus damaging the deck; putting a heavy car far too far
forward, grossly overloading the front axle; dragging a car on with
seized wheels, damaging winch and deck; using it for unsuitable loads,
whether it be machinery that imposes loads in the wrong place, or heaps
of rammel that accompany a classic car and chatter and fret their way
into the deck; kerbing tyres at speed; pulling lighting cables out; and,
of course hitting things like gateposts and other cars.

You can put all the terms in your hire agreement that you like - and
believe me, I have (I used to write commercial contracts): but there's a
big difference between having a contract and enforcing it, particularly
in these "customer is king" days where "unfair" always seems to hit the
trader, not the consumer.

Then there's the real biggies: what happens if your customer decides
that towing's a doddle, so it's a steady 75 down the hill on the M5
until suddenly he sees the trailer overtaking him, dragging a few
holidaymakers with it? OK - you know it's not your trailer's fault, or
your fault for not ensuring the driver knew what he was doing, but can
you afford to go to court to defend yourself, let alone pay the damages
if you are found negligent? Easy - insure it. Yes, right. Getting any
insurance for "motor trade" is like joining a medieval guild: "you've
been doing it how long??" "OK, that'll be your first-born child plus the
gross national product of wazzeyestan, please".

If you're running a big enough business, you can probably get this
particular public liability cover thrown in with all your other
insurance, but as a one-off - ouch!

It's going to be increasingly difficult to get customers: very few
people seem to be taking the trailer tests, so it will soon only be old
men who are still allowed to tow big trailers, and I saw in last week's
papers the suggestion that the new EU driving licence harmonisation will
put a stop to them, too. Ever-tightening legislation and enforcement
will also soon, I'd guess, stop people towing beyond the
ultra-conservative manufacturer's limits, and even with the growth of
4x4s, many of the toy ones aren't rated for towing proper loads. As an
aside here, google this group for just how low the official towing
capability of Series Land Rovers is. (cue: "I can tow a house with mine"
(but legally?)).

You need the right premises, too. Trailers take up a lot of room, and
numpties who hire them will not be able to back them into your drive
ready for the next person. So you might finish up doing all the
hitching and unhitching in the road, and having to fire up your own
truck to put it away. Have you got tolerant neighbours, or will some
curtain-twitcher report you for running a business without planning
permission?

To go down the other route - providing a complete collection service,
saves the "what's he doing to my trailer?" problem, but makes the
insurance problem even worse. A couple of thousand pounds for motor
trader insurance may be bearable if you're working every day, but it's
80 quid on each job if you're only getting one a fortnight. The trouble
is that, as a business, the barrier to entry is relatively low, and once
you're in it, whether with a trailer or mackled-up Transit, the
temptation is to try to get business solely on price, simply to recover
a few of your overheads. So you finish up doing a day's work, and once
you've topped your tank up you might have a hundred quid to pay for
insurance, maintenance (tow motor and trailer), tyres, depreciation, the
advert to get next week's job - and your national insurance stamp,
council tax, and cheese sarnie.

And of course, you'll need a tachograph, in theory.

If you're the sort of person who breezes through life without a care in
the world, who's got no money so doesn't care if he's taken to the
cleaners, and no imagination about what could go wrong, or you can tack
it onto an existing business, go for it.


--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. [email protected])***
Car Transport by Tiltbed Trailer - based near Derby




 
On or around 5 Apr 2006 22:12:45 GMT, Derry Argue <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>In contrast to the header, I am considering buying a car trailer big enough
>to take a Land Rover. (Capacity around 2.5 tonnes).
>
>My reasoning is that I need a "new" Land Rover and will require the means
>to collect it. That means two drivers, or hitch-hiking, training, busing,
>or flying a long distance. I'm thinking that there must be others in a
>similar situation and I might be able to justify the expense by hiring it
>out occasionally.
>
>So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
>there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
>on, talk me out of it. Please!


everyone I know with a trailer won't lend or hire it, cos they get broken.

as to hiring yourself and the trailer to move other people's stuff, people
tend not to want to pay the resulting cost - you've got to be talking a
minimum of a pound a mile to come close to making money at it.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On 5 Apr 2006 22:12:45 GMT, Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:

>In contrast to the header, I am considering buying a car trailer big enough
>to take a Land Rover. (Capacity around 2.5 tonnes).
>
>My reasoning is that I need a "new" Land Rover and will require the means
>to collect it. That means two drivers, or hitch-hiking, training, busing,
>or flying a long distance. I'm thinking that there must be others in a
>similar situation and I might be able to justify the expense by hiring it
>out occasionally.
>
>So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
>there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
>on, talk me out of it. Please!
>
>Derry


Plan C, of course, is to go buy it and mysteriously break down just
outside the old owners house. You do have recovery on your AA
membership, don't you?

Utterly immoral, but when you look at the cost of transporting or
hiring trailers it's not hard to see why people do it.

--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'03 Volvo V70
'06 Nissan Navara aka "The Truck"
 
Derry Argue wrote:

> My reasoning is that I need a "new" Land Rover and will require the means
> to collect it.


Land Rover do seem to have an uncanny ability to reproduce on their
owners drives ;-)

> That means two drivers,


I volunteer for duty! Don't make it too far away or if so make it
before the 18th :)

> or hitch-hiking, training, busing,
> or flying a long distance. I'm thinking that there must be others in a
> similar situation and I might be able to justify the expense by hiring it
> out occasionally.
>
> So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
> there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
> on, talk me out of it. Please!


Don't know just how much demand there would be here, Derry. My
neighbour is a very nice man and willingly offers me his very nice,
very large 20ft bed trailer which holds any LR product with ease. I
don't think that there will be that many people who would pay for a
hire, if so then there are hire places in Inverness that they would
probably go to. I haven't been up to Ardgay garage recently, but does
the guy that took that over still have Jimmy's trailers? They
definately were hired out on occasion. Tom Rob has something large as
well? Nothing beats having your own though, especially since you have
the space to store it, so I wouldn't like to talk you out of it (and it
would be a sight easier to drive round the single track roads than my
neighbours ;-)

Regards

William MacLeod

 
On or around Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:35:02 +0100, "Autolycus"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>google this group for just how low the official towing
>capability of Series Land Rovers is. (cue: "I can tow a house with mine"
>(but legally?)).


The used to quote 4 tons[1], but then there came tachographs and it went
down to 3500Kg to avoid being a goods vehicle under certain conditions. At
one point they quoted 5T for Daihatsus...

[1] Mind, you had to know how to pull off in low box and shift into high on
the move to do that, unless it was pointing down hill to start with :)
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine... War is hell"
Gen. Sherman (1820-1891) Attr. words in Address at Michigan Military
Academy, 19 June 1879.
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:35:02 +0100, "Autolycus"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >google this group for just how low the official towing
> >capability of Series Land Rovers is. (cue: "I can tow a house with mine"
> >(but legally?)).

>
> The used to quote 4 tons[1], but then there came tachographs and it went
> down to 3500Kg to avoid being a goods vehicle under certain conditions. At
> one point they quoted 5T for Daihatsus...
>
> [1] Mind, you had to know how to pull off in low box and shift into high on
> the move to do that, unless it was pointing down hill to start with :)


*Series* vehicles - 2 tons.

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
On or around Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:11:26 +0100, beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>In message <[email protected]>
> Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On or around Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:35:02 +0100, "Autolycus"
>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>> >google this group for just how low the official towing
>> >capability of Series Land Rovers is. (cue: "I can tow a house with mine"
>> >(but legally?)).

>>
>> The used to quote 4 tons[1], but then there came tachographs and it went
>> down to 3500Kg to avoid being a goods vehicle under certain conditions. At
>> one point they quoted 5T for Daihatsus...
>>
>> [1] Mind, you had to know how to pull off in low box and shift into high on
>> the move to do that, unless it was pointing down hill to start with :)

>
>*Series* vehicles - 2 tons.


so the adverts were lying, then? I distinctly recall "4 tons tow" in the
adverts...

or is this a new recommendation rather than an original?


Mind, these days you'd need linked brakes to be legal, in any case.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
George Orwell (1903 - 1950) Animal Farm
 
Richard wrote:

> *Series* vehicles - 2 tons.


I think both you and Austin are right, as far as I recall the 4 ton
Austin mentions is for close coupled brakes, four wheels and a petrol
engine. Diesels are rated at 3 tons. Overrun brakes like the vast
majority of people use is limited to 2 tonnes, non-braked is 500Kg.
Cross country braked is 1 ton.

Different owners manuals seem to give different info, but the above is
sensible to me.

Regards

William MacLeod

 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:11:26 +0100, beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >In message <[email protected]>
> > Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On or around Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:35:02 +0100, "Autolycus"
> >> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> >>
> >> >google this group for just how low the official towing
> >> >capability of Series Land Rovers is. (cue: "I can tow a house with mine"
> >> >(but legally?)).
> >>
> >> The used to quote 4 tons[1], but then there came tachographs and it went
> >> down to 3500Kg to avoid being a goods vehicle under certain conditions. At
> >> one point they quoted 5T for Daihatsus...
> >>
> >> [1] Mind, you had to know how to pull off in low box and shift into high on
> >> the move to do that, unless it was pointing down hill to start with :)

> >
> >*Series* vehicles - 2 tons.

>
> so the adverts were lying, then? I distinctly recall "4 tons tow" in the
> adverts...
>
> or is this a new recommendation rather than an original?
>
>
> Mind, these days you'd need linked brakes to be legal, in any case.


I suspect the adverts referred to 1-tons and/or 6-cylinder models
rather than 88"

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
In message <[email protected]>, Derry Argue
<[email protected]> writes
>In contrast to the header, I am considering buying a car trailer big enough
>to take a Land Rover. (Capacity around 2.5 tonnes).
>
>My reasoning is that I need a "new" Land Rover and will require the means
>to collect it. That means two drivers, or hitch-hiking, training, busing,
>or flying a long distance. I'm thinking that there must be others in a
>similar situation and I might be able to justify the expense by hiring it
>out occasionally.
>
>So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
>there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
>on, talk me out of it. Please!
>
>Derry


Buy one and then sell it. Ifor Williams trailers seem to go second hand
for not much less than new.
--
Mark Roberts
 
On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:35:02 +0100, "Autolycus"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> As an
>aside here, google this group for just how low the official towing
>capability of Series Land Rovers is. (cue: "I can tow a house with mine"
>(but legally?)).


Series III was good for 6 tonnes GTW and this could be 4 tonnes with
brakes run off the service brake or 3.5 tonnes overrun (subject to tow
hitch). The 101 was (and is) the worst at 1.5tonnes AFAIK.

>
>And of course, you'll need a tachograph, in theory.


Dual purpose is still exempt up to 3.5 tonnes of trailer isn't it?

AJH

 
In message <[email protected]>, Paul - xxx
<[email protected]> writes
>Derry Argue came up with the following;:
>
>> So, (a) what are the legal implications of hiring out a trailer and (b) is
>> there likely to be any demand? Now, I know you guys won't let me down! Go
>> on, talk me out of it. Please!

>
>I dunno the legal ramifications, but can offer the following anecdotal
>tales.
>
>Mate had exactly the same problem. He wanted a Landrover and had found
>one in Fife which wasn't driveable and he needed to get it home so
>bought a car trailer. That bit went fine.
>
>At home he decided he'd do the same and hire it out to friends,
>acquaintances etc First few 'customers' he had no problems with but
>then he got it back one day with a punctured tyre, a light pod missing
>and various scratches, dents etc. The chap he'd loaned it too wouldn't
>cough up and all repairs came out of his pocket. Turned out that he'd
>not included any insurance or legal waiver form or indeed any paperwork
>for the safe return of trailer and had relied on 'knowing' the people
>he loaned it too, I'd suggest this isn't a good thing.
>
>He then set himself up as a 'man with a trailer who'll collect vehicles
>and transport them anywhere', which worked infinitely better. He got
>paid up-front and whilst the didn't make a lot of money soon covered
>the cost of the trailer and began to make some small profit.
>
>Until he had an accident whilst carrying someone's car. Again he had
>been a numpty and didn't take out enough insurance, though he argued
>that that was why he'd used a broker to advise him.
>
>I'd suggest that if you do loan the trailer out, do it as a small,
>part-time even, business and not as 'favours' for people you know.
>

And hopefully he had insured his vehicle under "Hire or Reward"
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Nothing beats having your own though, especially since you have
> the space to store it, so I wouldn't like to talk you out of it (and it
> would be a sight easier to drive round the single track roads than my
> neighbours ;-)
>


That's what was going through my head. I hired one locally last time to
transport a Peugeot 504 for parts from Rockfield (5 miles?) and it felt
positively dangerous. I am quite sure it was illegal!

Maybe you saw the Ifor Williams for sale in ScotAds? Tempting, but I think
it will be trains and thumbing. The caveats on here have already reduced me
to a quivering nervous wreck -- and I haven't even seen the trailer yet!
Incidentally, the seller says he replaces them every 18 months which,
knowing Ifor Williams, probably means he gets the use of them for next to
nothing.

Derry

 

"AJH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 09:35:02 +0100, "Autolycus"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> As an
>>aside here, google this group for just how low the official towing
>>capability of Series Land Rovers is. (cue: "I can tow a house with
>>mine"
>>(but legally?)).

>
> Series III was good for 6 tonnes GTW and this could be 4 tonnes with
> brakes run off the service brake or 3.5 tonnes overrun (subject to tow
> hitch). The 101 was (and is) the worst at 1.5tonnes AFAIK.
>

Around 5 years ago, I was amazed to find in the Range Rover Repair
Operations Manual (AKM3630 Edition 7) (Section 04-6) that that the
Maximum Permissible Towed Weight is given as only 2000kg. This started
me off trying to get a proper answer from Land Rover about towing
weights for all their old products. I had a hell of a job getting them
to answer at all, but I finally got two things in writing: a letter
saying that Range Rovers of all ages had a towing weight of 3500kg (but
with no explanation for their other value in the Manual); and
eventually, I received a faxed list from the archivist at Gaydon, which
he said he had compiled from various handbooks. He told me that he was
the person who answered questions from Police forces on this subject,
and these were the figures he quoted to them. The weakness of his list
is that he doesn't reference his sources, and he doesn't explicitly
state that they are for over-run brakes, though it's reasonable to
assume they are.

A few examples from his list:

Series IIA or III 88" petrol - 1800kg, diesel - 1497kg
Series IIA or III 109" petrol - 1600kg, diesel - 1315kg
Series IIA 1-ton 4 or 6-cyl petrol - 1600kg

While these figures don't have the force of law that modern maximum
towing figures for commercials do, I think it would be hard to defend
yourself, either in court or to your insurers, if you exceeded them. If
anyone has the handbook for their vehicle showing a higher figure, then
they would, of course, be in a strong position.


>>And of course, you'll need a tachograph, in theory.

>
> Dual purpose is still exempt up to 3.5 tonnes of trailer isn't it?
>

Nope.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_freight/documents/page/dft_freight_504543.pdf
"EC rules apply to drivers of most vehicles used for the carriage of
goods

(including dual purpose vehicles), where the maximum permissible weight
(see

Annex A) of the vehicle, including any trailer or semi-trailer, exceeds

3.5 tonnes:"

The only exemption from the EC rules that is relevant here is a "private
use" one, and, arguably, this one:

"Vehicles with a gross vehicle weight (including batteries) of not more
than 7.5

tonnes used for the carriage of goods and solely propelled by means of
gas or

electricity (this does not include petrol or diesel start-up engines or
any other

type of dual-fuelled engine)."

Does this cover lpg conversions with the petrol tank removed? Who knows?
Not VOSA, ime.



--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. [email protected])***
Car Transport by Tiltbed Trailer - based near Derby








>


 
Autolycus wrote:

> eventually, I received a faxed list from the archivist at Gaydon, which
> he said he had compiled from various handbooks. He told me that he was
> the person who answered questions from Police forces on this subject,
> and these were the figures he quoted to them. The weakness of his list
> is that he doesn't reference his sources, and he doesn't explicitly
> state that they are for over-run brakes, though it's reasonable to
> assume they are.


It is really sad when Gaydon have people who don't care about LR
products or the potential implications of their shoddy, inacurate
presentation of "numbers" has on people who actually use LR vehicles.
As you say, there is absolutely no mention of different towing
capabilities even though LR are VERY SPECIFIC about the limits and the
braking methods ON and OFF road - the limits are different. I really
hope that no one has been prosecuted based on these figures. Nearly
every farmer who tows a trailer with a series would be done, based on
that baffoons numbers. A 1-ton recovery truck (which is what a lot of
them did for a living) couldn't even recover a land rover!

> A few examples from his list:
>
> Series IIA or III 88" petrol - 1800kg, diesel - 1497kg
> Series IIA or III 109" petrol - 1600kg, diesel - 1315kg
> Series IIA 1-ton 4 or 6-cyl petrol - 1600kg
>
> While these figures don't have the force of law that modern maximum
> towing figures for commercials do, I think it would be hard to defend
> yourself, either in court or to your insurers, if you exceeded them. If
> anyone has the handbook for their vehicle showing a higher figure, then
> they would, of course, be in a strong position.


Gaydon should employ people who can read is the one thing I can say.
About 2 seconds of searching online I found the following:

http://www.landrover.ee/est/files/manuals/cars/sIII/SIII_ROM_Part_1.pdf

Page 26, small box on right hand side "maximum permissable towed
weights" gives figures that are in line with what I quoted earlier, for
the 4 tons then I'd have to refer to another Series III manual to find
that (the above is a repair operations manual). Don't suppose you have
contact details for the person at Gaydon, do you? It just seems so
wrong that they are giving out stuff like that. Dunsfold should be the
guys who get to be definative about LRs vehicles..... at least they
have a clue.

Regards

William MacLeod

 

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Gaydon should employ people who can read is the one thing I can say.
> About 2 seconds of searching online I found the following:
>
> http://www.landrover.ee/est/files/manuals/cars/sIII/SIII_ROM_Part_1.pdf
>
> Page 26, small box on right hand side "maximum permissable towed
> weights" gives figures that are in line with what I quoted earlier,
> for
> the 4 tons then I'd have to refer to another Series III manual to find
> that (the above is a repair operations manual). Don't suppose you
> have
> contact details for the person at Gaydon, do you? It just seems so
> wrong that they are giving out stuff like that.


All I have now is a fax number, and the name "Richard", but I have
looked up the letter I wrote to them in which I suggested (politely, of
course), that they were talking out of an inappropriate orifice. This
is what I wrote to them:

"TOWING WITH LAND ROVERS



In July this year I tried to establish the maximum permissible trailer
weight for trailers with over-run brakes, towed on the road, in this
country, by Series 2A or Series 3 Land Rovers. Land Rover Customer
Support referred me to you, and after speaking to Richard, who I believe
is the Archivist, but whose surname I am sorry I did not establish, he
kindly faxed me a two-page list he had compiled from, I understand,
various Owner's Handbooks.



This list consisted of four columns: model, Unl.W., GVW, and T/W, which
an annotation showed as an abbreviation for Towing Weight. I was
surprised by how low some of the T/W values were, and assumed that it
was because they were so low there was no need to differentiate between
towing over-run and coupled braked trailers. With some regret, I had to
sell my 2A petrol 109", as its quoted T/W of 1600kg was rather lower
than I needed to tow.



The subject of towing is frequently raised on the internet news group
alt.fan.landrover, and on several occasions I have quoted figures from
your faxed list. The reaction has often been incredulous, but no-one
had been able to cite any better authority until recently, when a
contributor from Australia quoted from his Owner's Handbook Part Number
607324A (p39)



Cross country; 1020kg.

Road & track with unbraked trailers; 500kg.

Road & track with overrun trailer brakes; 2040kg.

Trailer with four wheels and independent power brakes; Petrol; 4080kg,
Diesel 3060kg.



These figures are significantly different to those in your faxed list.



I managed to have a quick look at a S2A Owner's Handbook (part number
606859) at an autojumble yesterday. This uses a slightly odd phrase
like "maximum drawbar load", but then gives the same figures as your
list. - right down to 1315kg for a LWB diesel. It then occurred to me
that the handbook writer might have been using "load" in the sense of
"horizontal force that the drawbar can exert, with the engine running at
its speed for peak torque, in low ratio first"? A quick sum using the
diesel engine max torque of 139Nm, an overall ratio of 40.688,
transmission efficiency of say 80%, and a rolling radius for a 7.50x16
tyre of 350mm, gives a maximum pull (or push) of just under 13kN, which
is very close to the 1315kg in the book. I do not have the torque
figures for the petrol engine to do the same sum, but taking a guess at
the rolling radius of SWB tyres certainly gives a similarly close result
for the slightly higher figures for the SWB diesel in the handbook.



If I am correct in my supposition, the handbook figures bear no
relationship to what Land Rovers can legally or even physically tow,
since these figures are about lifting a weight vertically, not dragging
a load that has rolling resistance but is not (usually!) on a vertical

slope. The real-life limitation is likely to be based on structural
considerations (including dynamic loadings), stability at speed, braking
capability (hence different values for overrun and coupled-brakes
trailers), and even the ability to actually get the load up to the speed
at which the engine develops maximum torque.



Is it possible that you may have misinterpreted the handbooks by
translating "maximum drawbar load" into "(maximum permissible) towing
weight", or have I misunderstood something? Since I understood Richard
to say that these figures are sometimes quoted to Police forces
enquiring about possible cases of overloading, it is perhaps of some
importance to you to establish this beyond doubt.



Confusion, perhaps with a different origin, extends to more recent
models, too. The Range Rover figure of 2000kg quoted on page 04-6 of
Repair Operations Manual AKM3630 Edition 7 seemed very low, and
eventually I received a letter from a Customer Care Executive (!) saying
that the limit was actually 3500kg, without an explanation as to when,
or why, the figure had changed.



While some members of the Land Rover fraternity will always take the "it
moves it, I can tow it" approach, others, like myself, prefer to attempt
to tow legally, which seems broadly to mean remaining within
manufacturers' recommendations. Any help you can give to enable us to
do this will be appreciated."



I'm still waiting for a reply, four and a half years later.




--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. [email protected])***
Car Transport by Tiltbed Trailer - based near Derby


 
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