Freelander 1 Freelander EV

Jayridium said:

I'd probably get banned from this thread if you knew what I'm putting into my Range Rover Classic....

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Go on then, poke the hornets nest.

Nodge68 said:

I could do that.
My concern is the space for the batteries, as the Leaf is a 400V system, which obviously needs lots if cells to be incorporated.
This is why I thought about the Hyper 9, which is only a 100V motor. Unfortunately it's expensive, but it does come with its own configurable inverter.
I'll see, whatever I do will have to get past Mrs Nodge first.

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I believe the Leaf battery pack is not just smaller than my eGolf pack but a much better shape for packing into the boot or whatever.

Alibro said:

I believe the Leaf battery pack is not just smaller than my eGolf pack but a much better shape for packing into the boot or whatever.

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The leaf packs do seem to end up in a multitude of different installations, probably because of the stackable nature of the cells.
From memory Leaf packs are made up of 7S3P modules, which makes things pretty simple to install. Unfortunately they are heavy, as the cells are in a metal casing, which although making them useful to install, also makes them heavier than similar capacity packs.

Nodge68 said:

The leaf packs do seem to end up in a multitude of different installations, probably because of the stackable nature of the cells.
From memory Leaf packs are made up of 7S3P modules, which makes things pretty simple to install. Unfortunately they are heavy, as the cells are in a metal casing, which although making them useful to install, also makes them heavier than similar capacity packs.

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I have to admit I didn't realise but the new (40kwH) Leaf modules are 4S so there will be only 24 in a pack. The original Leaf modules were only 2S and had 48 in a pack.
More details below but they are actually much lighter than my eGolf modules with the same number of cells and higher power at 1.67kWh where the 4S eGolf is 1.6kWh.
I guess this confirms my suspicions that the eGolf modules are heavier duty than other EV's as they have neither heating nor cooling and the only way they could get away with that is to over spec the cells.
https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/products/nissan-leaf-modules

Alibro said:

Go on then, poke the hornets nest.

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Yep, come on @Jayridium you have to spill the beans now.

So today I made another leap forward but not by actually doing anything.
I made the decision to forget about the two under body battery boxes, for now anyway.

I think this is what I will do.



Obviously they will be secured and covered and I'll probably have the BMS beside them but managing to fit another four large modules under the bonnet made this possible and there are a few reasons for going this way.

I'm concerned about having battery boxes under the car getting water splashed around them. If I could guarantee they were sealed I'd be OK with it but.....

I don't fancy having to remove the rear subframe any time I need to access the fuel tank battery pack. If I could guarantee I wouldn't need to I'd be OK with that but.....

I want to make sure there are contactors and fuses in the battery pack to keep everything as safe as possible and as close to regulation as I can manage. Having multiple battery boxes would mean complication I don't want or need never mind the fact I didn't allow for that when designing the fuel tank battery box.

Even if I use the two under body areas for batteries I would still need to have some modules in the boot so the boot will be compromised anyway. I might as well fill the boot as have three or four modules there.

I know this is not ideal but I want to get the car on the road and I have enough work still outstanding without making more for myself.
It is possible I might even be able to put the five small modules which are creating the 2nd tier into the fish bowl when I fit this pack in my proper car so the final implementation may not be as compromised as this.

I think I may have mentioned before the eGolf modules are very large, heavy and awkward to manage compared to Nissan Leaf 40kWh modules. I have thought for some time this is how they are able to get away without any heating or cooling for them. In some ways this is good for me but in others not so much.

Seems a good plan !

Be sure to cover the exposed terminals before letting a wet dog jump in the back !

andyfreelandy said:

Seems a good plan !

Be sure to cover the exposed terminals before letting a wet dog jump in the back !

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I never thought of that!

I'll take a look today to see if the five small modules will fit in the fish bowl. If they do it would mean a single flat raised floor in the boot which wouldn't be so bad.

I genuinely think this new direction with batteries inside the passenger cabin is the worst decision you've made in the entire project.

I've no skin in this gig, but I'd sounsel you to open written dialogue with the powers that be WRT battery box placement inside the cabin, and under the vehicle, expecially seeking claridfication on removing the fishtank. I've been thinking about the battery box in the background, could you get a scrap car's spare wheel well cut out from the boot floor, from something big that has a square wheel well like, like a nineties Jaguar, or a merc / volvo and use that to make your main battery box? You could dance around the need to remove the subframe every time you needed access to the batteries by bolting a bracket to the fuel tank strap mounring points, which would present bolt holes / trap nuts in a position that can be removed without having to drop the tank, and then bolting the battery box "straps" / cradle / mounting lugs to that bracket.

Alibro said:

I made the decision to forget about the two under body battery boxes, for now anyway.

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It's not ideal for interior space, but I understand your desire to get the thing up and running. I like the term KISS myself.
You've more than enough on your plate making it work correctly, so can see why you'd want to reduce the battery location issues, at least for now.
It looks like they don't take up much of the boot, so you'll still have a useful luggage capacity.

Jayridium said:

but I'd sounsel you to open written dialogue with the powers that be WRT battery box placement inside the cabin, and under the vehicle, expecially seeking claridfication on removing the fishtank.

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If it were me, the fish tank would have already been removed, and a flat plate welded in. I'd then use the flat floor now created to house a box below the boot floor. There's plenty of height there as the original exhaust box hung below the fish tank, so if both are removed, it seems a waste of space to me, which I'd want to utilise.
However I can see that Ali at this point would like to actually use the vehicle to test out the concept, and iron out any bugs.
I'm sure he'll revisit the under floor options later on, probably on a better and more suitable FL1.

Jayridium said:

I genuinely think this new direction with batteries inside the passenger cabin is the worst decision you've made in the entire project.

I've no skin in this gig, but I'd sounsel you to open written dialogue with the powers that be WRT battery box placement inside the cabin, and under the vehicle, expecially seeking claridfication on removing the fishtank. I've been thinking about the battery box in the background, could you get a scrap car's spare wheel well cut out from the boot floor, from something big that has a square wheel well like, like a nineties Jaguar, or a merc / volvo and use that to make your main battery box? You could dance around the need to remove the subframe every time you needed access to the batteries by bolting a bracket to the fuel tank strap mounring points, which would present bolt holes / trap nuts in a position that can be removed without having to drop the tank, and then bolting the battery box "straps" / cradle / mounting lugs to that bracket.

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I don't think you understand how tight the fuel tank space is, I've already built a battery box as big as it can be to fit there and it can only hold 6 modules, 4 large and two small. This leaves only the rear area under the boot floor which will still not be enough to hold all the remaining cells.
The box for the battery compartment can be steel if that makes a difference however I've seen many EV builds over the last few years and the vast majority have the batteries in the boot with only the back seat and the parcel shelf between the batteries and the cabin. This has never been an issue with the authorities in any country.
I have also seen builds where the battery box was put under the car but is so exposed and near the ground they are an accident waiting to happen yet they still pass inspection.

Nodge68 said:

If it were me, the fish tank would have already been removed, and a flat plate welded in. I'd then use the flat floor now created to house a box below the boot floor. There's plenty of height there as the original exhaust box hung below the fish tank, so if both are removed, it seems a waste of space to me, which I'd want to utilise.
However I can see that Ali at this point would like to actually use the vehicle to test out the concept, and iron out any bugs.
I'm sure he'll revisit the under floor options later on, probably on a better and more suitable FL1.

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I've already done this Nodge and there is sufficient space for maybe 6 or 7 modules where the fish tank was but I would still need to fit some in the boot, even with the fuel tank box.
I've come to the conclusion that if some modules have to be in the boot then they might as well all be and save myself the grief of trying to build, fit and seal two boxes under the car.
It really isn't until you look carefully at the available space you realise it's not as much as you would think. Add to that the lardy big batteries I bought and I don't have much alternative now.

Alibro said:

I've already done this Nodge and there is sufficient space for maybe 6 or 7 modules where the fish tank was but I would still need to fit some in the boot, even with the fuel tank box.
I've come to the conclusion that if some modules have to be in the boot then they might as well all be and save myself the grief of trying to build, fit and seal two boxes under the car.
It really isn't until you look carefully at the available space you realise it's not as much as you would think. Add to that the lardy big batteries I bought and I don't have much alternative now

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I'm pretty sure that if you've tried, and you feel it's not worth the effort, then it's probably not worth it.
There's nothing wrong with using the boot in law I don't believe, it's just an internal space thing.
There is an option to save a bit of space, which is to build an under floor storage box for vehicle necessities like the wheel change equipment.
You can then build a false floor over the batteries, and move on with solving any running issues you may have.

Nodge68 said:

I'm pretty sure that if you've tried, and you feel it's not worth the effort, then it's probably not worth it.
There's nothing wrong with using the boot in law I don't believe, it's just an internal space thing.
There is an option to save a bit of space, which is to build an under floor storage box for vehicle necessities like the wheel change equipment.
You can then build a false floor over the batteries, and move on with solving any running issues you may have.

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!00% Nodge. Thanks.

Alibro said:

!00% Nodge. Thanks.

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There's also a weight saving by not using heavy steel frames to carry the batteries under the car, which is good for range.

Nodge68 said:

There's also a weight saving by not using heavy steel frames to carry the batteries under the car, which is good for range.

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That's true but not one of the reasons I'm doing it this way.

Alibro said:

That's true but not one of the reasons I'm doing it this way.

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I can understand your reasoning.

Looking at the modules laid out in the boot, they don't seem to take up as much space as I thought they would.
I'd be happy with that space loss myself, especially as a low range vehicle would be used for general running around, rather than holiday road trips, where space is at a premium.

I've checked the fishbowl and it won't take the five modules, this is the one I removed earlier from the test mule and apart from only holding four it is too shallow.




however with a little modification I can easily make them fit and maybe a few more too which would make things easier in the boot.

Nodge68 said:

I can understand your reasoning.

Looking at the modules laid out in the boot, they don't seem to take up as much space as I thought they would.
I'd be happy with that space loss myself, especially as a low range vehicle would be used for general running around, rather than holiday road trips, where space is at a premium.

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I agree, the space lost with the five modules under the boot will be minimal.

My original thoughts were to use plywood both for the base they would be screwed too and the top cover but I think I'll have a go at building a proper steel box to hold them.
I was surprised at how well the under bonnet box went and also how easy it was so I figure it's worth having a go both for safety reasons and space saving.
If I can fit a few of the larger modules under the boot where the fish tank was it should make the shape of it a bit easier to manage.
Hopefully @Jayridium doing it that way should alleviate your concerns. since even professional EV conversion companies do this all the time.

Alibro said:

If I can fit a few of the larger modules under the boot where the fish tank was it should make the shape of it a bit easier to manage.

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If that's possible, the it's probably worth the time and effort to carry out. Is it practical to make the fish tank larger, maybe the full width of the boot, so making more space below the boot floor?